Agreed, but we’re not talking about an incidental bill- and if we are, then Omar Little’s whine about how the OP won’t take responsibility for her actions makes even less sense.
I debated about making this thread for hours for that reason, but her thread was just turning into a snarkfest. Her thread seems to be getting back on track and I hope she hasn’t given up on it.
I kind of thought this would just sink like a rock like every other thread I try to start but if the ethical debate can be confined to here instead of there I’m happy.
I disagree. Once someone makes a post on a public message board, he or she should realize their post could wind up anywhere.
Just wondering if you’d feel the same way if instead of a pregnancy, we were talking about HIV.
If the OP discovered she’d acquired HIV from this guy and she needed money for retrovirals, would you still feel uncomfortable saying he’s ethically obligated to help her out? Because I wouldn’t, not at all. Although both rolled the dice by having risky (or even not so risky) sex and thus both share some responsibility for what transpired, none of that really matters in terms of ethics and morality.
My personal philosophy is simple: If you do something that causes harm to someone else–either intentionally or unintentionally–and you’re in the position to fix or mollify that harm, then you should do so. Running away because you can’t be arsed to care (since when is that a requirement for anything?) is unethical.
It’s against the law in many jurisdictions to have sex without notifying your partner that you have HIV. In theory, that could lead a person to sue the other person in civil court for the cost of their medical bills, pain & suffering, etc.
My hypothetical doesn’t require an HIV+ person to know they have HIV. Even if they’re clueless about their status only until after they infect a sex partner, I still think it would be unethical for them to leave this partner in the lurch if this person couldn’t afford treatment.
“It’s their body, therefore their problem” seems to be the whole rationale behind Dio’s postion. Although this might be the truth legally (which no one disputes), ethically it’s just not very compelling argument.
I still can’t see how a guy can be held in anyway ethically responsible for a miscarriage. You might as well blame him for an earthquake.
I think it’s her own job to protect herself from STDs - her body, her risk, her responsibility (and same with guys), but I also don’t think this is analogous to holding a guy responsible for a miscarriage. A miscarriage is something he has no control over and no ability to prevent.
No, but you sure can obligate them to support any offspring arising from those “naps”.
Dio, what I really objected to was your assertion that a woman always has a choice about continuing a pregnancy or not. She doesn’t. If she is too poor to cough up the bucks for an abortion she has no choice. Really, the society that is so generous to baby-makers should at least front the bills for someone having a miscarriage even if unwilling to cover abortions… but we both seem to agree the medical system in this country is messed up in some respects.
We may have to agree to disagree, but I’m in the camp that the ethical thing to do would be to render some assistance (not even necessarily a full half, but something) to help deal with this miscarriage which would not have occurred if they hadn’t had sex together. I also acknowledge he is in no way legally obligated to do any of that.
Offspring, yes, of course, but if there is a miscarriage then there is no offspring.
Too damn bad for her then. If she is in a position where she can’t deal with the consequences of pregnancy (and it’s pretty easy to get a MAP), then she should be taking that risk.
Doesn’t stress have an impact on the odds of miscarriage? If so, then doing something (or neglecting to do something) that increases the stress on a pregnant woman could be construed to contibute to a miscarriage.
I’ll leave aside frank criminal cases like poisonings or, say, kicking a pregnant woman down a few flights of stairs in an attempt to get her to lose the baby. Yeah, back when I worked in social services we had a case like that - stupid male biped decided he didn’t want to be a daddy and kicked the woman involved down eight flights of stairs at a Cabrini-Green high rise. Class act.
So if someone has a wanted pregnancy, they’re not supposed to grieve over a miscarriage? THAT is what I’m getting at.
Do you dispute that he helped make her pregnant? Because you can’t have a miscarriage without being pregnant.
Likening this to an earthquake makes you look fantastically disingenuous. I mean, if the guy is completely guileless in this scenario, it’s a mystery to me why the OP should have even been scolded about sleeping with someone of poor character in the first place. If he’s done nothing wrong, which is what you’re saying now, then why support Omar’s finger wagging her for being careless? Based on your logic, no one was careless.
Who the fuck said anything about grieving?
That’s the informed risk she took with her own body. All he’s risking is offspring.
Once there is a baby, I think he’s fully on the hook, and I despise men who skip on their parental responsibilities. He has no responsibility to the woman at all, though. She is responsible for her own body.
No one technically is responsible for any other adult. That doesn’t have jack to do with what is ethically and morally sound, though.
Too damn bad for her? Do you even hear yourself?
I’ve got no argument with anyone–I know my opinion and have no need to prove it to anyone, but man…this is a profoundly ungenerous sentiment, regardless of your politicial or social views.
There are two issues at play here.
Omar Little initially was responding to a comment within the post and while callous, was not particularly douchey. His continued protestations did then propel him into full douche mode.
As to ethical obligations and the like, Bugger THAT. I’m with Dio on this one. Since biology is unfair on this issue, and we as a society are not willing to provide true legal equality, (or provide for the termination or results of pregnancy in this matter), his position is entirely correct. Medical events happen. It sucks, but she is in this one on her own.
Well, I’ll be fucking damned. It finally happened. And its well deserved IMO. Dio’s bullshit insensitive, unhelpful behavior in the miscarriage thread was beyond the pale. Not that he’s the only one. Though its probably not his behavior there that got him in trouble.
Not that I wasn’t ready to reach through the intarwebs and steal his keyboard so that he’d have to quit typing once he got going in that thread, but there’s no point bashing him here while he’s suspended.