This thread is making my head hurt.
QG, I disagree with you on a lot of points in this thread - possibly all of them - but I’m going to focus on a few specific ones. First, this:
[QUOTE=Quiddity Glomfuster]
How many people are chronically late and do not have it? Cites, please.
[/QUOTE]
Cites? That people are chronically late? Exactly what sort of cite did you have in mind for that? Would you really contend that less than 1% of the general population could be characterized as chronically late? If so, then your experiences with people are dramatically different from my own.
It’s not. It’s nice that you don’t consider it harmful. But, I mean, to some extent, the degree to which a particular act harms someone is defined by the person at whom (for lack of a better phrase) the act is aimed. An example: I have a pair of friends, one male, one female. The male, for reasons lost to antiquity, when he is angry, calls the female a “fat slut.” This does not bother her at all (her usual response is “your mother.” They’re very mature). Does the fact that female friend doesn’t mind being called a fat slut automatically mean that everyone shouldn’t? If male friend calls a new acquaintance a fat slut on their first meeting, should the new acquaintance not mind because female friend doesn’t? If not, then why should I automatically agree that I am not harmed by habitual latecomers just because you say you don’t think they’re harmful?
I work a lot in community theatre. Our rehearsals generally begin at 7:00PM, and we are evicted from the building at 10:00PM sharp. There is no negotiating on this point. This is unpaid - an activity that everyone participates in to have fun and produce a show of which we can all be proud. In every production, there are three or four actors (usually out of 15-20) who are habitually late. I mean, late to every rehearsal, by 15 to 45 minutes. Sometimes we cannot start without them. We’re not permitted to rehearse later than 10. So: (1) a group of grown-ass people, with jobs and families, sit around literally doing nothing instead of chores, dinner with spouses, or what have you, waiting for the late people; and (2) we don’t get a sufficient amount of rehearsal in to make an optimal show. Sometimes: (3) we have to add additional rehearsals, giving up more things that WE enjoy, to get enough work in. Are you genuinely contending that those three or four latecomers are not harming me, and the other actors who are in the show, at all?
Now, this would not be a problem if we knew about it in advance. We could either plan rehearsals so that we work on material the late actors are not in from 7-7:30, or simply choose not to invite the late actors to be in the show at all. But that leads me to my final contention:
Dishonesty. There is no definition of dishonesty, however tortured, under which telling people you will be there at 7 when you know that you most likely will not, does not apply. It’s not actively lying, I guess, but it is withholding information that will allow the person who is trying to plan a life around you to plan more efficiently. Why is this a bad thing? Since we’re talking about harm, what possible harm is it to you, as (for example) an actor, to just say, “hey, look, I sometimes have a little trouble with time; I’m going to try to be here at 7:00 every night, but honestly, I may not be able to get here at 7 on the dot every night?”
We can debate on whether being punctual is a choice all day long, but being honest about whether or not you are punctual is definitely a choice.
If I have a brain disease - a rare seizure disorder - that causes my right arm to abruptly punch to my right, utterly beyond my control unless I am concentrating very hard, and I accidentally punch you, well, you’ll probably be understanding. If you explicitly ask me if it’s OK to sit to my right because you don’t want to get punched, and ask if I’m likely to punch, and I say, “Yes, it’s fine, I won’t punch you,” and then I do anyway, then I’m kind of a jerk.
