I think that you might see people taking it personally because some people feel that they have suffered a lot of damage at the hands of NPP.
[/QUOTE]
This is something I don’t get. I can imagine situations in which a person’s being late causes others real damage. But for the most part, the “damage” involved is just an inconvenience.
Isn’t it? (For the most part?)
Do a bunch of inconveniences add up to actual, serious “damage” that one has a reason to be seriously upset over? Its hard for me to see how it could be so.
In a way, though, I’m not the best person to be talking about this. I just don’t rely on others enough such that their being late or early or whatever ever ends up being on my radar as a serious issue.
[QUOTE=Quiddity Glomfuster]
Why is questioning an assumption considered ‘snarky’? I’m saying what makes you say it’s ‘normal’?
[/quote]
I wasn’t sure what your intent was because it seemed like the kind of question that could only be proven or disproven based on anecdotes rather than a cite to factual research. It wasn’t intended to be an outright accusation, and I apologize to the extent it may have seemed like one.
Hmm. My impression was that the majority of on-time folks in this thread experienced some form of frustration (be it anger or anxiety or a mere recognition of being personally inconvenienced). Yes, I do recall that a couple of folks said that it wasn’t a big deal to them if their companions were habitually late, but I took that to be a small sampling among the folks who say they’re always on time.
I still wonder if you can at least understand how, if not empathize with, someone who is punctual may recognize that a chronically late individual has some kind of problem that keeps them from being on time and still be unhappy that a) the punctual individual has experienced, at minimum, some inconvenience, and b) the late individual has not recognized that they have a problem.
[QUOTE=Heffalump and Roo]
This seems like a strange point to make. If we’re not associating with latesters AT ALL, what difference would it make how we feel about them internally or how we devise our moral system?
If we cut all latesters out of our life, including those that we work with if we have control over them, what would we have to be angry about?
[/quote]
Huh? That’s… exactly my point… sort of.. I think… unless I’m completely misunderstanding you.
My point is to say that what has been said is this: You have every right to choose not to associate with people who are late all the time. (I acknowledge that finding out they are like this may cause some inconvenience… ) But even as you retain this right, you do not thereby have a reason to be angry with those people. (Not without further information.)
I believe this to be ultimately irrelevant to anything important in this discussion, since the biblical debate that might ensue will turn on issues of interpretation irrelevant to the issue at hand, but still, you’ve piqued my curiosity. What passage have you got in mind?
And I was wrong. This is not her website. Sorry. This is just her article pasted on someone else’s website. Her website is the one listed in the quote.
And the citation she’s referring to looks like this: citation
I couldn’t copy the citation, but let’s just say that some of the punctual people here were more polite about it.
[/QUOTE]
My apologies: I am not sure whether to read your post as intending to drive home a point, or rather, as simply throwing more info out for the thread.
[QUOTE=Stratocaster]
An hour did that to you? Was it the loss of an hour’s sleep? Or was it the rush of getting there? I don’t get it, but maybe I’m misunderstanding.This is the part if the post where the latesters and the punctual guys will disconnect. If 9:00 is easy for you, I cannot comprehend why 8:00 wouldn’t be as well. Get to bed an hour earlier, get up an hour earlier. Really. I’m not trying to be confrontational, but I absolutely don’t get this.
[/QUOTE]
Well, I don’t get it either. Getting to work at 9, I had no trouble getting up, dressed, out of the house, and when I arrived at work (and after a bit of coffee-drinking and organizing my desk and stuff) and after that I was sharp, focused, and effective. Eight a.m., and I had the worst trouble getting out of the house, it was like things conspired against me. Run out of toilet paper, nobody’s stored an extra roll within reach, drop a contact lens on the floor and have to spend four minutes searching for it, poke mascara in my eye, which makes me cry off my makeup around that eye, have to redo it, drool toothpaste onto my shirt…each of which takes only seconds to fix but they added up.
And then when I got to work–well, I was there all right, but I was not sharp, focused, and effective.
Somebody said if I had to get up at 4 every day I would adjust. Oddly enough, for awhile I did have to get up at 4, to be at work at 5, and for some reason that was no problem. I can’t figure it out. If I could be to work at 5, I ought to be able to manage it at eight. But for some reason 5 worked for me as a starting time and 8 does not.
[QUOTE=Nava]
We need to switch cultures, in Spain being early is just seen as “weird” but woe art thou if you can’t stay late.
I so hate it when people lie in job interviews, whether it be the company or the potential employee - wouldn’t it be much better for both parts if the job descriptions were accurate and the resumes were realistic? Is it one of those Mars/Venus things I just don’t get or something?
[/QUOTE]
Spain has just risen to the top of my list of places abroad I’d like to live!
[QUOTE=pseudotriton ruber ruber]
So from my point of view, I’d say that Hilarity has taken her problem and made it the world’s problem. She needs to find a job, preferably one where she’s self-employed, whose hours accomodate her cicadian rhythms, instead of agreeing to a work schedule that she plainly has no intention of meeting.
As has been noted, the problem isn’t really with chronic lateness, it’s with chronic dishonesty. It’s cool if you need to be late all the time, but if you only told people that this lifelong pattern ain’t going away, and you’re okay with them permanently standing around waiting for you with a thumb up their asses, as is the case, then I think they’ll drop you as a friend or fire you or whatever, and that’s the part you’re being dishonest about. You want the benefits of the friendships and the jobs, but don’t want to hold up your end of what everyone else in the freaking world considers your end of the bargain.
You know this, too, of course, but it’s much easier to rattle on about your cicidian rhythms and ADD and PMS and FBI and CIA…Be honest, and take the hit that honesty brings, and see if you’ll find that easier or harder than buying an alarm clock and putting up signs and dealing with your fucking problem.
[/QUOTE]
First of all, I don’t understand why you think I’ve made it the world’s problem. Or why you think that I don’t have a job, because I do. I’ve always had a job, sometimes two.
Second of all, how on earth can you call me dishonest? In that post I mentioned that I specifically ask employers how important it is if I’m on time in the morning, and mention that despite my best intentions, if I’m scheduled to show up earlier than 10 a.m., I probably won’t be be real punctual. They are the ones who have said that doesn’t matter, and then when I get the job it turns out it actually does.
[QUOTE=Hilarity N. Suze]
First of all, I don’t understand why you think I’ve made it the world’s problem. Or why you think that I don’t have a job, because I do. I’ve always had a job, sometimes two.
Second of all, how on earth can you call me dishonest? In that post I mentioned that I specifically ask employers how important it is if I’m on time in the morning, and mention that despite my best intentions, if I’m scheduled to show up earlier than 10 a.m., I probably won’t be be real punctual. They are the ones who have said that doesn’t matter, and then when I get the job it turns out it actually does.
[/QUOTE]
Later on I asked him whether he had read your post, and he explained that he had not read your post, only what he took to be a summary of it later. He has since read the post, though he has not himself posted since then.
Note: I haven’t bothered reading the other nine pages of this thread because it was obviously stupid by its title and jumped to the last page because it’s lived surprisingly long.
[QUOTE=enipla]
I still want to know why those people that are consistently late think that is OK to make others worry about them.
[/QUOTE]
While you’re at it, perhaps you could explain why on earth you would jump to the conclusion that “people that are consistently late” would need to be worried about. A prompt person is late? Call him after an hour. A consistently late person is late? Check in tomorrow. It’s easy once you get used to it.
On second thought, don’t bother explaining because I’m unlikely to read it. Just do the other half of humanity a favor by not expecting them (not me because I try to be prompt, usually) to meet your expectations.
[QUOTE=Blaster Master]
It’s not always that simple, and for one with a memory as lapseful (is that a word?) as mine, it’s more difficult. You’re right, in most cases, I can choose whether or not to skip things; if I’m at the gym, and I misjudge my time, I can choose to miss an exercise, or cut down on cardio time, etc. If that is all I forget, then there’s seldom an issue with my punctuality. Many times I forget essential items. Refering back to an earlier example where I have to work out and see the gf thereafter. Let’s say I feel right on time but, oops, I forgot to account to account for taking a shower which can add an unexpected +/-30 minutes (10-15 for a shower, 5-10 to get dressed, 5-10 to do the “going out with the gf” stuff, yadda yadda) and I don’t realize this until I’m on my way home from the gym–and yes, this has happened more than once. This isn’t a case where I can “forego” what I forgot; I’m not about to go have a nice dinner with my gf all sweaty and smelly in my gym clothes. Sure, I can rush through that stuff, and probably get it down to the 15-20 minute range; and when I have forgotten this sort of thing, that’s 15-20 minutes into my leeway. Combine that with likely a couple other things I forgot, and completely unpredictable Friday or Saturday night traffic, and I end up being late.
[/quote]
At the moment that you realized that you would be out of time, then the whole social contract changes. It’s at this point, you call the person and ask if they would like to reset the time since you can’t make it or if they would choose to forgo the meeting.
I realize that this doesn’t apply to you since you say your gf is even more late than you. And that’s the reason that using you as an example doesn’t really work since you’ve created your life in such a way that punctuality has less consequences for you. That’s great for you, but since it doesn’t apply to a great many other people, your experiences are just that–your experiences.
If you found anything in QG’s sites, please quote them and then cite them. I haven’t found anything persuasive, so I don’t consider them cites.
I wasn’t asking you to provide cites. I was just noting what you said above. . . that your anecdotes can’t be generalized to all cases (of people who don’t have a choice about punctuality) or indeed even one single other person. Or to be really technical, to even yourself except to say that it’s your experience.
Given what you’ve said about your experience, I’d counter with my own personal anecdotal experience (one for one) that I’ve heard someone explain their circumstances exactly as you have and when circumstances got dire enough, that person became punctual over an extended period of time (months).
The question was asking what you’d like the other people in your life to think about why you’re late. So is the answer that you’d like them to think that it’s too hard to explain?
It’s just as difficult to explain a concept like punctuality to someone who hasn’t experienced it. Once you’ve experience what it’s like to be punctual, then it’s easier to explain to others who have been.
So you’re probably right that you’re not going to be able to explain what it’s like to be late all the time as I don’t experience that.
I suspect this has something to do with it. Keep noticing how long things take and you’ll start to see patterns. When you analyze the patterns, your prediction rate might improve.
Unfortunately, the exam question didn’t help any. It just told me that your exams are largely computational or ones where everything you know can be fit in the space provided. In many of the exams that I took, I could write for the entire exam period on one question and still have enough material to keep going, but if I did that, I wouldn’t have time to finish the exam. We must be/have been in different fields of study.
[QUOTE=Quiddity Glomfuster]
Oh you have got to be kidding! This is getting crazy. ‘Damage’? Well then let them take those hateful NPPs to court and sue the bastards!!!
:smack:
Please tell me I didn’t just read that.
[/QUOTE]
Your emotion seems to scream off the page here. Are you writing it that way?
Because I agree with your statement here: (although the wording is kinda clunky)
My point is to say that what has been said is this: You have every right to choose not to associate with people who are late all the time. (I acknowledge that finding out they are like this may cause some inconvenience… ) But even as you retain this right, you do not thereby have a reason to be angry with those people. (Not without further information.)
-
[/QUOTE]
Well, that’s exactly the thing, isn’t it? They don’t come labeled! And whether it’s an issue of being honest with others or honest with yourself, they rarely, in my experience, tell you about this charming little facet of themselves. Like I said upthread, a considerate NPP would tell you they have problems with punctuality and will either not make plans to be somewhere specifically (to see a movie, for example) or will make the sort of plans that will allow for their problems. I don’t see why I don’t have a reason to be angry with somebody who knows they never get there on time (I’ll grant that some people may be delusional enough to not realize) but doesn’t try to fix it, warn me, or work with me to plan around it. Or even make a phone call, “Hi, I’m running late, do you want to catch a later show or just go ahead and go into the theater and save me a seat?”
[QUOTE=Hilarity N. Suze]
First of all, I don’t understand why you think I’ve made it the world’s problem. Or why you think that I don’t have a job, because I do. I’ve always had a job, sometimes two.
Second of all, how on earth can you call me dishonest? In that post I mentioned that I specifically ask employers how important it is if I’m on time in the morning, and mention that despite my best intentions, if I’m scheduled to show up earlier than 10 a.m., I probably won’t be be real punctual. They are the ones who have said that doesn’t matter, and then when I get the job it turns out it actually does.
[/QUOTE]
Because nobody gives a fuck about your personal problems on the job, nor should they. It’s a job, not your goddamned mommy.
“I can’t work at my best if I have to be here by 9 a.m. but 9:15 and I’m golden, just so you know.”
“Yah, whatever.” You really think anyone is listening to your personal, self-indulgent bullshit at that point? They’re not. Their attitude is “Show up, and do the fucking job. This one says the start time doesn’t work for her, this one wants James Garfield’s birthday off, this one needs pea soup to be on the cafeteria menu every day–tell you all what: the job is 9-5, Monday through Friday, show up and do your work, okay?” Personally, instead of “Yah, whatever,” I would have responded to your announcement that you won’t be real punctual with “Okay, forget about the job, then,” but they decided to give you a shot and find out what “not real punctual” means.
I’m unaware of where I said that I thought you didn’t have a job. I said you need to find a job whose hours suit your schedule, and not to announce at a job with fixed hours what your schedule will be. It’s harder to find such a job, of course, and you may find your career choices limited, or the pay unsuitable, etc. but you’ll be having your needs met as far as getting the fuck out of bed and out of the house on time, and what could be more precious than that?
[QUOTE=pseudotriton ruber ruber]
Because nobody gives a fuck about your personal problems on the job, nor should they. It’s a job, not your goddamned mommy.
“I can’t work at my best if I have to be here by 9 a.m. but 9:15 and I’m golden, just so you know.”
“Yah, whatever.” You really think anyone is listening to your personal, self-indulgent bullshit at that point? They’re not. Their attitude is “Show up, and do the fucking job. This one says the start time doesn’t work for her, this one wants James Garfield’s birthday off, this one needs pea soup to be on the cafeteria menu every day–tell you all what: the job is 9-5, Monday through Friday, show up and do your work, okay?” Personally, instead of “Yah, whatever,” I would have responded to your announcement that you won’t be real punctual with “Okay, forget about the job, then,” but they decided to give you a shot and find out what “not real punctual” means.
I’m unaware of where I said that I thought you didn’t have a job. I said you need to find a job whose hours suit your schedule, and not to announce at a job with fixed hours what your schedule will be. It’s harder to find such a job, of course, and you may find your career choices limited, or the pay unsuitable, etc. but you’ll be having your needs met as far as getting the fuck out of bed and out of the house on time, and what could be more precious than that?
[/QUOTE]
The nature of your complaint against Hilarity has changed, but you have used phraseology which seems to be intended to suggest a continuation of an ongoing, single complaint.
Also, it seems clear to me that: Hilarity has the right to make whatever stipulations she cares to make as to what hours she will work, and her employer has the right to make whatever stipulations they care to make as to what hours she may work. Hilarity made such a stipulation. Her employer could have refused her employment, or could have agreed to her stipulation. In this case, the employer chose the latter option.
All on the up and up, all perfectly capitalist-like.
Whence the frustration and cursing from you?
I would understand if Hilarity had insisted that her employer must let her work whenever she wants. But that is not what Hilarity has described herself as doing, not at all.
[QUOTE=Obsidian]
I have coworkers who pull into the parking lot at 8:55 every single day. How in hell do they do that?
[/QUOTE]
For one, I doubt it’s spot on at 8:55 every day, and likely only seems that way because they leave at the same time all the time. Maybe other punctual people feel as I do, but when the time comes to get my ass moving, I can feel it in my stress levels. For example, my shift starts at 7pm. It takes about 50-60 minutes for me to get to work. The range of intensity can be felt in the quarter hour that I need to be leaving.
At 5:45pm the feeling starts, it says that if I leave now, even with bad traffic, I’ll make it by 7:00pm. At 5:55pm I NEED TO LEAVE NOW to make it by 7:00pm. If I see that the time is 6:05pm, I have to pray that traffic is smooth. If it’s 6:10pm, this is the point of no return, and I feel and see red and it pisses me off that I’m going to be late. So, over time, I’ve learned that I need to leave at 5:50pm every time to make it on time to work. And I do, it’s that simple. Everything before this time is calculated to make sure I leave at this time. For example, wake up at five, zone out for 5 minutes, snack and zone out for another 10 minutes, shower for another 15 minutes (includes more zoning out). That’s 30 minutes right there, leaving me another 20 minutes to zone out and prepare to leave at 5:50pm. I generally get this feeling when I have to be somewhere at a certain time.
Simple life you say. True dat. But if you need to do more before you leave at your target time for things like handling kids, chores, etc… then that absolutely needs to be factored in and accounted for. Otherwise, you’ll lose track of time and end up late. The folks you see arriving at 8:55 everyday have simply budgeted their time to make sure they arrive at that time consistently, and in this group, I’m sure some have it easy, and some have it hectic.
For the offshoot appointment, and unfamiliar areas and traffic, I can understand tardiness. But for something like work or events that you’re used to, budgeting time really isn’t that difficult.
As usual, I posted to a thread that has a billion pages. I apolgize to Obsidian if what I responded to has already been covered.
On second thought, I wonder if I have brain damage or ADD because because I can’t tell what page I’m on when reading these threads and respond well after it has probably been covered.
[QUOTE=enipla] Asimovian My most sincere thanks to you for saying that your lateness may cause others difficulties because of a problem that you are trying to deal with.
And thank you for admitting that if you cannot keep your commitments, that is your fault and not those of the people that expect you.
Good luck to you. Those of us that are on time are not as judgmental as some would like to paint us. We do appreciate it when someone that has problems with time to admit it.
[/QUOTE]
Ditto. QG’s comment from page 7:
…is very telling in that she expects the majority of us who are juggling complex schedules and succeeding 99% of the time to drop our successful approach to time management and adopt one that is clearly not working. Embracing the “poor little me” victim mindset helps neither the tiny handful of people who truly do have a problem, nor the majority (including ADD professionals) who care about punctualiaty and have made the effort to figure out what actually works. It’s attention whoring in the extreme.
[QUOTE=Quiddity Glomfuster]
Oh you have got to be kidding! This is getting crazy. ‘Damage’? Well then let them take those hateful NPPs to court and sue the bastards!!!
[/QUOTE]
You don’t think it’s damage when the normal people takea hit on an event ticket because someone couldn’t be on time?
Losing a reservation isn’t damage?
Missing a train or flight isn’t damage?
Wasting my free (or work) time isn’t damage?
Not paying bills on time isn’t damage?
Picking your children up late isn’t damage?
Worrying about the inconsiderate latester isn’t damage?
Oh…that’s right. It’s all about you. You’re not damaged in the slightest, are you?
[QUOTE=Hilarity N. Suze]
Well, I don’t get it either. Getting to work at 9, I had no trouble getting up, dressed, out of the house, and when I arrived at work (and after a bit of coffee-drinking and organizing my desk and stuff) and after that I was sharp, focused, and effective. Eight a.m., and I had the worst trouble getting out of the house, it was like things conspired against me. Run out of toilet paper, nobody’s stored an extra roll within reach, drop a contact lens on the floor and have to spend four minutes searching for it, poke mascara in my eye, which makes me cry off my makeup around that eye, have to redo it, drool toothpaste onto my shirt…each of which takes only seconds to fix but they added up.
[/quote]
Are you saying that on this particular day the gods conspired against you getting out the house on time? We all have days like that, even those of us very punctual, where so many things go wrong, no reasonable person would have accounted and planned for them. The kind of morning where you run into work saying, “My God! You will not believe the morning I’m having!” The chances of “everything” going wrong, of course, are slight. I can’t remember the last time it happened to me. It may be more than ten years ago.
Again, I’m not trying to be confrontational, just trying to clarify.
You literally couldn’t get up to get coffee, having just staggered to your desk? It sounded pretty dramatic.
Again, just asking, did you try 8 for some time, and it didn’t work? Or was it just a bad experience or two? Because if 5 is no problem, and 9 is no problem–I know I’m repeating myself–I just don’t get it. Fair enough, 'cause it sounds like you’re saying the same thing.
) But even as you retain this right, you do not thereby have a reason to be angry with those people. (Not without further information.)