I take it you’ve never had shift work?
How so? Seems the same to me.
I’m suggesting that his agreement was probably more like “Yah, whatever” meaning “Let’s see if this works out better than it sounds” and he found out, no, it was a real problem, this was chronic lateness and it needs to stop. The employer, to my mind, made an error in being as flexible as he was being, but he soon corrected the impression of infinite flexibiliy when he saw he was being taken advantage of.
I get cranky around p. 7 of a thread whose small but clear points are being ignored. If you are still unclear, please allow me to put it it caps for you. LATENESS IS RUDE. STOP IT
Don’t know about “not at all.” Seems to me that if there’s a dispute about such things as working hours, the employer gets to make the call because he gets to decide, finally, if Hilary stays or she goes. SHe’s had her say, he’s had his, and his way finally stands. Yet she’s still full of complaint. Seems to me her choices are these:
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STFU and come in to work when your employer says he needs you to
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Continue working while looking for a job whose hours suit you better, risking getting fired from this one because you can’t meet the employer’s hours
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Stay on this job, feeling miserable and oppressed, until your work reaches the point that you get fired and then look for another job.
Just to be crystal clear, do you acknowledge that the the majority of people chronically late do NOT have ADD issues or some other mental defect? You may have answered this and I missed it. Because this seems to be the key point where people are talking past each other. Are these givens for you, regarding the chronically late?:[ul][li]There are some people who have mental defects such that it is virtually impossible for them to be routinely punctual. These people are a distinct minority of latesters, and an even more tiny percentage of the total population.[/li][li]Most people who are chronically late have no such defect. Their personalities may make them less inclined or suited to be regularly on time, making the effort to be punctual greater than for someone else who is naturally inclined to be punctual. But it’s within their power to do so.[/ul]Seriously, are we in agreement here? Perhaps we aren’t.[/li]
Because here’s where the punctual gang would add a couple more bullets to the list, and this is where the road seems to fork:[ul][li]I am not willing to behave in a manner that assumes that those who are chronically late have such a defect since, as a matter of fact, it’s likely they don’t. I say this in the same way I’d say that a shoplifter in my shop ought to be prosecuted, despite the fact that some minuscule percentage of the population are kleptomaniacs who can’t control their behavior. If I know somehow that someone is so afflicted (with a defect that makes them unable to be punctual), I suppose I’d sympathize, but it sure ain’t going to be my operating assumption.[/li]GIVEN THAT LAST BULLET, I do hold that it’s reasonable to assume that in the vast number of instances, the latester deliberately opted to be late–he had a choice, in other words–and in doing so, placed my inconvenience as a lesser concern. I consider that disrespectful.[/ul]Your last two bullets, I believe would be much more “benefit of the doubt” accommodating, and who’s to say that’s wrong for you? But can you not see how the other position is at least reasonable? There is no universal law regarding how much benefit of the doubt we ought to apply for a given situation. The position you seem find so contemptible seems eminently practical to a lot of us. Is that really so impossible to understand for you?
You have been corrected so many times on this point that I am beginning to suspect that you are deliberately missing it. The claim is not that the chronically late intend to inconvenience their friends, the claim is that they choose a course of action that has inconvenience as a necessary outcome.
You also choose to ignore the many examples given that put the lie to your assertion that is based on assumption only. In fact, you are choosing to ignore anything that might contradict your increasingly undefendable premise.
Gosh. Thanks for jumping in and setting us straight. Thanks also for contributing to an “obviously stupid” thread. We appreciate how much it must pain you to do so.
Well. is this pretty much the definition of a drive-by? For those who will bother to read this, the point has been made in the previous pages; the ones unblessed by the presence of dropzone. We only ask that people meet their own expectations, and keep their own word. If you can’t be there on time, don’t say that you can.
Really? What do you call post #356?
I haven’t been posting in this thread, but have been following it over the past few days. It’s interesting to me because I am convinced that if ADD had been known about when I was a kid, I would have been put on Ritalin for sure. I have classic signs of it…lack of focus, forgetfulness, inability to finish tasks on time…or ever, etc. etc. I am not too bad about punctuality on a day-to-day basis, but I am just terrible at longer-term time management. If someone gave me a date today of, say, February 18 to get something done by, I would never say to myself, “ok, that’s in 10 days, which is X day of the week. What do I have to do now to get that task done in that timeframe, and what other things are happening between now and then that I will have to work around in order to get that thing done?” In other words, scheduling time in the long run so that I can accomplish goals. My life was one endless series of fire drills to get things done when they were supposed to be done. And the most frustrating thing about it is that I could see other people aroound me who naturally seemed to know how to do that kind of scheduling & never had the kinds of problems I had.
The point of telling this story is that when this thread first opened, I was going to reply that, yes, I believe punctuality is a choice, but that I’m sure it is much harder for some people than others, and that some naturally-punctual people probably don’t understand the effort it takes some folks, and what goes on in their heads that keeps them from being on time without major effort.
At this point, I don’t know what to make of all of this. Despite my younger years of struggling in school because of my inability to plan, I am in a field where my job requires that I plan out my life in the 1- to 3-week increments that I have always found so baffling. I work under constant deadline, and have figured out coping mechanisms so that I don’t drive myself crazy. It takes effort. It takes writing down lists. It takes looking at a calendar every day and counting out how many days until X is going to occur, and looking at all the prep for that occurance, and making sure I’m on track with it. I need a lot of input from other sources on stuff I work on…input from my boss and clients, so I need to account for the time it takes for them to look at things and get back to me. Years ago, when I started in this field, I seriously couldn’t have done any of this. I had to be given stuff more or less on a task-by-task basis, which was ok with lower-level jobs. But I realized if I wanted to move up, I had to learn how to do the planning & time managment myself, and so I figured out a way that works for me.
And that’s the key, really…I found out a way that works for me, because it was important to me to do so. Because of my experience, I have a lot of sympathy & empathy for people like me, who have trouble with time. I saw in another thread Quiddity Glomfuster describe her grasp of time as “hazy,” and that is a pretty good description for me, as well. But I don’t believe that this is a personality trait that cannot be dealt with IF the afflicted person is motivated enough to do so.
It’s like when I learned to play the piano…I quickly learned that I really have no musical talent whatsoever…the “concept” of music is foreign to me. But I CAN teach myself the mechanics of it, and make my fingers go in the right place, IF I TRY. I have to practice, practice, practice, and it will never be quite natural, but I can play competently if I want to badly enough. A person doesn’t have to have a “talent” in a particular area to learn a skill, it just takes more effort.
By and large, I think The Art Of Long Term Planning is difficult. That’s why we have project management software and calendars and daytimers and all the things you and I use to complete tasks in a timely manner. I think very few people are really naturally good at it, and the fact that they make it look so effortless can be downright mystifying to those of us who stand by and watch the Perfect Planners breeze through their day without going nuts. But I’m also willing to bet that those who make it look effortless are employing all the tools the rest of us use to get through their day. They just don’t stress about it outwardly like me!
I think you are right that time managment is difficult, and I’m perhaps not explaining well HOW difficult is is for me, and how I have a complete inability to think beyond tomorrow without major help. But it doesn’t matter, it’s all a matter of degrees anyway. Some people have to try harder at things, some people have to try REALLY hard at things, and some people don’t have to try at all. But if you have the problem, it’s like anything…the FIRST step is to face that you have an issue, and commit yourself to finding and working with a solution.
I call that a post I missed.
But you don’t think that I was in some sense accusing you of not having posted, do you? I was just reporting (it turns out falsely) that you hadn’t since posted. Why did I report this? Because of the nature of my post (catching Hilarity up on thread events she had missed) it would have been expected that I say what you had said since the last post of yours I mentioned, if you had in fact said anything. Since I thought it would be expected (given the nature of my post) for me to report such a post, if such a post existed, I therefore elected to report that there was no such post.
Again, this wasn’t any kind of accusation. There was no expectation that you for any reason should have posted. I was just reporting what I thought to be a fact, for the sake of what I thought to be the relevant kind of completeness in my reporting.
-FrL-
Noplace have I ever said that people with executive function disorders should not make changes. However people who are intent on remaining on their high horses will misread what I’ve said and interpret it that way.
Reiterating my points:
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Four per cent is not a ‘miniscule number’. You probably work with twenty or thirty people - one of them may be an ADDer.
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If you find yourself waiting for someone consistently, you have two choices:
- realize this is a pattern that is unlikely to change and therefore adjust your own pattern or
- suggest to that person that there are people with ADD who have that problem and that there are nifty clocks and software that could help them get organized. Understand that may not even help some of them. Understand that even if they do buy the software, etc. it may still take quite a while for them to develop the new ways of operating.
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Understand that ‘insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result’. How bright is it, exactly, to continually get frustrated over someone being late when you yourself characterize the person as ‘habitually late’?
:smack: -
Somebody being late is not about you. So quit believing it is.
My main objection is the insistence on some people’s parts that people ‘choose’ to be late. It’s bull, pure and simple.
How could you know any of this if you were not part of the transaction?
E.g., continuing, over and over, to misrepresent that “up to four percent” statistic as something that supports your premise on this topic, when you have been shown, over and over in this thread, that it does not mean what you want it to mean.
It is crystal-clear to me at this point that you are either arguing in bad faith or, through a clever bit of performance art, illustrating for us what it is like to deal with someone with a diminished brain function. Either way, adieu.
Because what kind of an asshole would the employer have to be to agree that a new employee can show up whenever it suits her schedule and that this lateness would never have any repercussions whatsoever? In using the word "probably,’ I was trying to suppose what would likely be on the employer’s mind. When I hire someone, and she tells me, “Sometimes I’m a little late,” I either pull the plug right then and there or, if punctuality isn’t so vital to her position (if she’ll have few meetings with other employees at her start time, and if she rarely arrives to deal with pressing, time-sensitive issues) I might say “Ok, we’ll see how it works out.” Now what I suspect is that Hilarity’s new employer took the latter course, and Hilarity interpreted this to mean “Come whenever” and is all browned-off now that she’s catching some well-deserved and predictable flak.
And understand our position QD. Not all that are chronically late can blame it on ADD.
And it doesn’t matter if it is the cause or not. It’s very telling that many people here (you included) seem to think that being late, and wasting other peoples time is not harmful to those that are left hanging.
I don’t see how anyone could not interpret this behavior as rude and disrespectful.
I believe that it is more closely related to passive aggressive behavior than it is ADD.
Yep, sometimes it can be tough. I had a dinner party last night with many things to cook.
I set timers, I asked my Wife what she though about cooking times, and when people would arrive. I double checked. I did not want to serve at 9pm when I had said dinner would be served at 7pm.
Yep. That’s what those that are consistantly late are doing.
Good point.
We know that. It’s all about them. Another good point.
Four per cent is the figure you cited for people with ADD. Despite repeated requests, you have no cites for what per cent of the four per cent are tardy as a result. The four per cent figure is irrelevant without further clarification.
Every time you drag out this dead horse, I will respond until you get it. No one is accusing anyone of choosing to be late. We are accusing them of making choices that necessarily result in their being late. There is a distinction, and you should really try to understand it.
I think Vinyl Turnip (and Contrapuntal, upon post and edit) just covered this point, but you’ve made this statement so many times that it can’t hurt to bring it up again. I don’t think a single person in this thread has refuted the four percent statistic you’ve cited, nor has anyone said that the four percent makes up a small number of the population. What has been pointed out to you repeatedly, and what you seem to have ignored, repeatedly, is that we have no way of knowing what percentage of that four percent has ADD that would manifest itself in the form of chronic tardiness. I’ve yet to see you truly acknowledge that. I’m not sure why you believe that constantly bringing up the magic four percent number is helpful to your argument.
Let’s accept that stat for the moment. Answer THIS QUESTION (not the question you’d prefer to): Do you believe that the number of people with a mental defect that makes it virtually impossible for them to be consistently punctual is significant as a percentage of the total number of people who are habitually late? If so, what do you base that on? What percentage would you suggest? Cause it ain’t 4%, unless you think every ADDer is incapable of being punctual. You keeping up? Please answer the question posed.
This is astounding. The responsibility for the aggravation created by latesters is the person who is left waiting. Unbelievable. That’s pretty funny. So the person who has not been on time for any appointment in the last 5 years has no responsibility in saying, “Sure! See you at 7:00.”
BTW, chronic latesters may remain my friends, but I give them absolutely no power to inconvenience me once they’ve established that pattern. If I’m planning on something fun and social, I make sure I invite more than that person, and if/when they don’t show up on time, no big deal. I’m starting when we said we would. BTW, you’d be surprised how often this changes the latester’s behavior, and he suddenly finds the ability to get his ass ready when we said we’d pick him up, after a couple of times when we leave without him.
Of course, this isn’t possible when dealing with someone with whom you don’t have an extensive track record.
It is when I’m the guy inconvenienced.
They choose not to do anything that would make them on time. They make a choice that inexorably leads to lateness. There are people in this very thread who have said so. Are you actually reading everything? Apparently not.
Don’t know what you’re frothing over. I’m responding to ‘only a miniscule number of people have ADD’. And the response is that 4% is not insignificant. Period.
Do I have to resort to the rudeness that others are using to make my own points?
What I am trying to say should be understandable by people who’ve matriculated from junior school: some people have a condition that prevents them from being good with time therefore if you have a friend that is bad with time, give that person the benefit of the doubt rather than rushing to take affront.
If you can give me one good reason why you ought not determine whether someone has done something to offend you deliberately before you choose to be offended, then I’ll suggest that you go to Congress and change all laws to read ‘guilty until proven innocent’.
If you cannot grok that accusing someone of malice or ‘disrespect’ or ‘bad behaviour’ without knowing that is true (meaning that the person himself has told you precisely that) is, exactly, ‘assuming guilt without evidence’, then I’m appalled, frankly. In my estimation, that position is indefensible, period.
You’re welcome to say that you don’t like it when people are late. But you don’t have the right to say they’ve done it deliberately unless you have proof they have. Anything else is patently unfair.
Do you realize that “miniscule” means “small”? In your sector of the universe, is 4% huge? (I’m going to ignore the fact that the 4% stat by itself is not meaningful, a fact you have continued to ignore.)
What percentage of that four per cent are chronically tardy because of ADD?
The complaint is with people who can be on time for some things, but not for others. The complaint is not with people who are always late for everything.
The determination is usually quite easy. There are two elements. 1) Chronic tardiness. 2) Lack of remorse and/or bullshit excuses.
Strike “malice.” For the eleventy-seventh time, no one is charging “malice.” It is a strawman argument.
If someone tells me she chose to do something that prevented her from keeping her word to me, I do not need to know why she did it. I do not need to be told “precisely” anything. It is possible to extrapolate from the given data. She valued something else over keeping her word to me.
See above. We know it by their own admission.