Is punctuality a choice?

Great Debates
561

[QUOTE=Stratocaster]
Read Contrapuntal’s posts. Do you hold this position for any offense or bad behavior you can imagine? Do you provide the benefit of the doubt for everything? Because all “bad behavior” could have such a reason behind it, however remote the possibility.
[/QUOTE]

I’m not sure which of Contrapuntal’s posts you are thinking of in particular.

To answer your questions, the seriousness of the offense is going to have practical (not moral) implications as to how insistent I should be about extending “the benefit of the doubt.”

But in fact I can not think of a time that I have judged myself (especially after the fact) as having been justified in feeling anger at someone with whom I personally have had to deal.

I can think of a couple of cases in which I believe I am correct in judging someone’s character as deficient in some way. But I myself tend to treat deficiencies of character almost exactly like I would treat a mental disease–I work around it when interacting with that person, or if necessary, avoid interacting with that person. If I can’t avoid it, I deal with the fact the person’s irrational acts as they come. So its hard to say whether the idea of extending “the benefit of the doubt” to them even applies. My judgment of their character doesn’t really enter into my deliberations as to how to interact with them, though my beliefs about their mental structure might.

-FrL-

562

[QUOTE=Frylock]
But unless you know more about them than just the fact that they tend to be late, you should withhold any judgment of their character and any emotional reaction toward them. Otherwise you run the risk of doing something very wrong: Being angry with someone or thinking badly of them without just cause.

-FrL-
[/QUOTE]
I suggest that the set of people who are A) Chronically tardy and B) Nothing else is known about them, is so small as to be insignificant. Most people who are chronically tardy provide an excuse or an apology, so we know right there that they are either aware of their poor behavior, and/or chose to do something that caused them to be late. Most people with whom we arrange meetings are not total strangers, so much more is known about them than that they were late. This is a strict interpretation of your point, I know, but you have made it so many times that I fell it is a fair one. If it seems like nit-picking, perhaps we can arrive at a better interpretation.

563

[QUOTE=Stratocaster]
Your point isn’t lost on me. It’s not entirely logical though. How can we hold someone who may have no control over their actions responsible for their actions? If I shouldn’t consider the behavior offensive, why would I punish the person for it?
[/QUOTE]

What I’m saying is there is no need to concieve of it as “punishment.” It’s simply the appropriate action to take in order to fulfill your role as, say, an employer, or as, say, a person with other obligations to other people, or whatever.

-FrL-

564

delete post

565

[QUOTE=Kalhoun]
But the point is, as crazy as it might make you, you ARE coping. You’re putting forth the effort and doing what is expected of you the vast majority of the time. You’ve made it a priority, as difficult as it is sometimes. You could be the poster child of hope for the whiners who try to push the problem off on everyone else! :slight_smile:
[/QUOTE]
True, now I am coping. I THINK that was the point I was trying to make…that you have to find these coping mechanisms…if for nothing else, for your own peace of mind. If you want to be able to be successful in relationships, careers, etc., you can’t let these problems rule your life. And people who put up with it or excuse the problem as “that’s just the way s/he is” are nothing but enablers, IMO. You can take steps to help a person, but accepting it is not the answer.

566

To add to my post #562, we know *something *about anyone who is late twice or more. The only time we potentially know nothing else about a person is the first time they were late, which takes the chronically tardy out of the picture.

567

[QUOTE=Quiddity Glomfuster]
I actually do :wink:
I understand that, and the grief of people with ADD is that their particular conditon causes behaviours that look like ones that can be easily modified - but in those folks they can’t. Causes them an awful lot of grief. Horrible self-esteem. Feeling ‘hated by everyone’ as my SO used to say :frowning: It’s very sad.

Well I would now because of all the reading and studying I’ve done. It made me realize how prevalent ailments of the brain - to different degrees - are.
According to NAMI there are 2.3 million Americans with bipolar which agrees with American Family Physician which says 0.3 to 1.5% of the population. Less than half of the number with ADD.

I would probably have noticed the other symptoms of bipolar first, however I have heard of more than one case of adult-onset bipolar, which according to the article I quoted above, can be secondary to another condition. So I would keep an eye out for that and I’d listen to his explanation and see.

In fact, if someone begins to act very uncharacteristically, that’s something to be concerned about because it could indicate the onset of a mental ailment or an underlying medical condition that is affecting the brain. A friend’s mother died at 47 after having seemed extraordinarily depressed and moody and having balance issues. They thought it was menopause. It was a brain tumour.

Point being, if you see ‘bad’ behaviour, don’t be too hasty to consider it ‘bad behaviour’.
[/QUOTE]

Interesting that your default would be to assume your boyfriend is bi polar instead of screwing around. My gut feeling is that would not be the default of most people. I imagine that the vast majority of infidelity is not the result of being bi polar just as I imagine the vast majority of people being late is not the result of ADD.

My ex wife was bi polar (and no she did NOT exhibit this particular symptom luckily!) but if I had found her in bed with another guy I doubt I would have immediately jumped to her mental illness as the cause.

Note I didn’t say that it couldn’t be–but the chances that it is caused by a mental illness are pretty minimal that is the reason most people are late or screwing around. I think the default given the numbers is that there is another more plausible cause–and the default is to the person running late to explain it.

Your BF didn’t know he had ADD? Am I misunderstanding this–you figured it out or did he? Seems to me if you find yourself always late and can’t figure it out–you would take responsibility to figure out why you were different then everyone else, etc. Once you had the reason–then you could take personal responsibliity and explain to your friends why you were late, etc–why is it incumbent that the friends to figure it out when it is NOT the most likely explanation?

I know if a friend of mine told me he had ADD, etc it would be something for me to consider, but I wouldn’t automatically default to that thought process. I am sorry that just doesn’t seem rational at all. Especially when you add the other factors such as this person is on time for some things and not others, etc—this is selective and would seem to indicate that there is some degree of control that is in place. Note I am not saying that ADD isn’t the cause–it could very likely be–but it is not incumbent on me to figure that out, it is the responsiblity of the ADD sufferer to find the solution and inform me if they don’t want to be seen as a jerk, etc.

568

Back in #501 I posted:

[QUOTE=StarvingButStrong]
Several times you’ve suggested that “punctual” people need to make accomodation for “non-punctual” people. How exactly do you think it should be done?
{snipped – a list of ways I thought of to handle the tardy to meetings problem}

All of those solutions require devoting (‘wasting’) extra time and effort – how much of that should coworkers/the business have to do?

Are their other solutions you can suggest?
[/QUOTE]

Your reply was:

[QUOTE=Quiddity Glomfuster]
Management issue. Find out if the person has some problem. If so, figure out what accommodations need to be made. If not, point out the different helping aids available and even (if you’re a real nice boss) offer to assist them in getting one or two. Or find out if they can be reassigned to a job where time isn’t an issue. There’s plenty you can do if you are a good boss.
[/QUOTE]

IOW, I asked what kind of accommodations we should make, and your reply is w ‘should figure out what accommodations need to be made.’

Do you REALIZE what a useless non-answer that is?

You are the one who has said she has a lot of special knowledge on this subject, you are the one who has done all the research.

You tell us, over and over, that the Punctual people have to make accommodations for the NonPunctual peole, then when we ask, What accommodations should we make, your only reply is “You need to figure it out”???

Sheesh.

569

[QUOTE=StarvingButStrong]

IOW, I asked what kind of accommodations we should make, and your reply is w ‘should figure out what accommodations need to be made.’

Do you REALIZE what a useless non-answer that is?

You are the one who has said she has a lot of special knowledge on this subject, you are the one who has done all the research.

You tell us, over and over, that the Punctual people have to make accommodations for the NonPunctual peole, then when we ask, What accommodations should we make, your only reply is “You need to figure it out”???

Sheesh.
[/QUOTE]
This is what I don’t get…isn’t it incumbent on the person with the problem to figure it out? They may have a problem, but they are adults…they need to figure out what they need to do. Why should it be made someone else’s problem? To me, that’s just a major disconnect.

570

[QUOTE=JohnT]
Betting on the 4% odds while ignoring the 96% odds is a suckers bet.

You’re telling me that there’s a 96% chance that somebody is being an asshole when they’re habitually late and not ADD.

So why default to the 4% odds? Why should I give 24 people a pass because 1 uses a mental condition as an excuse for being late?
[/QUOTE]

A mental condition that is pretty well known about, that does not always cause habitual tardiness and can be treated with medication, additional planning or a number of other tools that most of us use on a day to day basis.

Some people may not be able to overcome this problem. Sad but true. But don’t discount the FACT QG that not being able to be on time (regardless of the reason) does interfere and cause damage to others.

The persons that patiently wait and worry about those that seem to have no excuse are not to blame for this. We all have to do this at some point. Even for those that are usually on time.

An anecdote. My Wife is very good at being on time. She was an hour or so late coming back from a cross country ski run up behind our house. Dark was getting close. One dog came back though.

I thought that she was PROBABABLY OK. But I CARE enough that I became a bit worried. I started gathering my gear. I used to be in a mountain search and rescue group. I know how many things can go wrong.

I was nearly out the door when she showed up. She was looking for the dog that had come home.

Fine, I understand. I sort of suspected she might be looking for the dog. Didn’t make me any less worried.

If she had no good reason for being late, I would at the very least tell her I was worried. The pile of outdoor gear on the floor getting ready to go probably made that statement though. She was glad that I cared enough that I was concerned and was getting ready to look for her.

The point of this is that it does not matter if you are dealing with a person that is habitually late or a person that is always on time. A decent person will be concerned when someone does not keep their commitments. A hand wave and a shrug that you lost track of time just does not cut it.

571

[QUOTE=Sarahfeena]
This is what I don’t get…isn’t it incumbent on the person with the problem to figure it out? They may have a problem, but they are adults…they need to figure out what they need to do. Why should it be made someone else’s problem? To me, that’s just a major disconnect.
[/QUOTE]
From what I can get from QG, it is the problem of the person that is waiting.

572

Sorry – on review, this came across harsher than I meant.

The thing is, at work I have been dealing (in an unsatisfactory way) with a chronically tardy person for going on three years now.

In this particular case, it’s not really being late to set meetings that peeves me off. I just bring along my PDA and read an ebook or play games, or have a good gossip with the others who are waiting. (Hey, I’m on the clock. If the business is willing to pay all our salaries to do nothing while waiting for this person, rightyO.)

The real problem is that she doesn’t get her ASSIGNED WORK done on time. I generally get assigned the task of compiling other reports into the final report. If MY report is due on day X, and I don’t get HER subreport until three days after that…Grrrrr. I hate being late. I resent like hell someone else making ME look bad because SHE is unable to do her share of the work on time.

I have tried reminding her, aka nagging, many many times. Every week at first, then every day when deadline approaches. Even when it ‘works’ I resent having to do it. I don’t want to be a nag! I don’t want to have to act as her surrogate mother. I’m not even her manager – just a coworker – so ‘handling’ her problems is not in my job duties.

Last year I got so fed up that I handed in the report on time, but with pages blank except for the headings for the part she was supposed to do AND a fair number of summary/overview paragraphs that said it was impossible to report on aspects X or Y or Z because the needed information had not been received.

She was RIPPING mad at me for doing that – to the point of yelling and then dissolving in tears – but I’d had it.
Oh, the outcome? I had to redo the report after she finally came through…and I think the boss even sympathized with her instead of me. :mad:

573

[QUOTE=Frylock]
As one of the “Defenders of the Tardy” on this thread, let me re-iterate: I do not see any problem with the procedure you are describing. Someone who is consistently late to work, especially when their position makes it important for them to be on time, probably should be fired in my opinion.

Can I ask a favor? Could those “non-defenders” who have read my comment here please note that fact? I want to make sure my position is not being misunderstood or lost in the noise. I’ve seen several comments (for example the quoted one above) which may indicate that this is happening.

-FrL-
[/QUOTE]

So the exception to forgiving someone for being late is work? Social engagements, family obligations, are those that much less important?

Even though you and other “tardy defenders” in this thread may indeed have a very unusual deficit in this area, that’s up to you to work out with your friends and employers (which we are not, we are actually random members of the public who don’t have any reason to cut you slack if you don’t show up for an appointment).

You can’t expect us to cut slack for the majority who HAVE NOT indicated they have any kind of disability in this area.

Otherwise, Harrison Bergeron, do we all as a society have to accept that it’s ok to not expect punctuality because a small minority may be unable to achieve it? In fact, asking for punctuality is rude! How dare you assume I’m not brain damaged!!

And think about what all this insistence on ADD being so CRIPPLING means (I use that word on purpose. There’s a reason why people with handicaps don’t like being painted with a broad brush. Most of them would like to be able to define what they can do THEMSELVES, thank you very much) Do you REALLY WANT employers to assume that if they somehow discover you have ADD, that you will inevitable be unable to be reliably on time?

I know, bullshit slippery slope argument, except the disabled community has BEEN THERE. Besides the whole “pull yourself up by your bootstraps” that may be grating on YOU, the other extreme is “those poor people can’t help themselve, let us all lower our expectations”. The latter is pretty much what I get from your current position, which is is very grating to ME. I can’t agree that an entire category of people can’t possibly be help to our societies normal standard of being punctual.

I’d rather assume if you were my friend, that regardless of your brain damage (and hey, I’m of the school that we all have some major areas that need work), that you’ll either tell me what’s going on in a special case, and otherwise make the effort to meet with my schedule like I meet with yours. Hey, set the meeting time an hour later that the latest you’d think you’d be! It does come down to, do you care if I’m left waiting or not. And all excuses aside, when someone doesn’t care on a routine basis, friendships are hurt too, not just work.

I also think some of you who may personally be choosing less difficult schedules because you have such a problem with being chronically late, may not realize how common being routinely late. ADD can’t explain all of it, and while we shouldn’t ascribe malice, I do think it’s mainly thoughtlessness.

And thoughtlessness is choice! As witness all the people here in this thread now thinking about it, including me. :slight_smile:

574

[QUOTE=snermy]
So the exception to forgiving someone for being late is work? Social engagements, family obligations, are those that much less important?

[/quote]

Though I talked about “being fired” here (because of the particular comment I was responding to) I meant the comment in a general sense. If a person is consistently tardy, you are completely within your rights (indeed, may have the duty) to cease relying on them, and in many situations, even ceasing to associate with them. (Sometimes in some kinds of relathionships like the ones you mentioned that is the only way to avoid relying on someone.)

Each case is going to be different. But in general, if a person is not reliable, you are permitted to refuse to rely on them.

This is not a punishment or a condemnation of the late person. Its just the appropriate action to take given the facts.

-FrL-

575

[QUOTE=snermy]

Even though you and other “tardy defenders” in this thread may indeed have a very unusual deficit in this area,
[/quote]

I am punctual.

-FrL-

576

[QUOTE=Frylock]
I’m not sure which of Contrapuntal’s posts you are thinking of in particular.

To answer your questions, the seriousness of the offense is going to have practical (not moral) implications as to how insistent I should be about extending “the benefit of the doubt.”
[/quote]
Doesn’t seem like a meaningful distinction. Would you wait longer for someone, someone let’s say who is almost always punctual, if he was walking to meet you, but called ahead to say he sprained his ankle and would be late as a result? If the answer is “yes,” then you’re extending a courtesy in recognition of something beyond his control that you do not extend to the chronic latester who just rolls in whenever he does. And if that’s the case, then you are assessing something different, ISTM, in the latter’s lateness, an assessment that clearly seems to imply that you don’t think it’s beyond his control. And if it is not beyond his control…you see where I’m going, I’m sure.

Not anger, then. But you feel justified (I’m assuming at this point) in dealing with his behavior in a different manner than someone else who might truly be late because of circumstances beyond his control. No?

577

[QUOTE=Frylock]
I am punctual.

-FrL-
[/QUOTE]

OK, color me confused on who/what tardy people you are defending. Are you feeling some other posters are being personally attacked, and you’re defending them? Are you just sympathetic to the late everywhere?

You haven’t made your point why WE should be sympathetic to late people (ADD or otherwise) spoiling our plans. Just because YOU don’t mind and YOU aren’t late, aren’t really to the point. That only explains why YOU don’t care. It doesn’t tell me why I shouldn’t when it’s my time involved.

I totally agree btw, with your position that we shouldn’t assume malice.
But the OP is about CAN YOU, or CAN YOU NOT choose. Somehow it is being recast as “are people intentionally late? and if they’re unintentionally late/have difficulty being on time, should they be blamed?”

Yes, blame is implicit in saying someone has a choice, and chose not to. But that’s not a personal attack on anyone, or any particular situation. Rather, it’s an offshoot from several people (I thought you were one of them, but I may be confused by your “tardy-defender” terminology) who are saying that some people just cannot help it (ie have no choice) and are therefore completely innocent and unable to do anything about the situation.

If you’re just supporting the downtrodden everywhere, then go to, but at that point your position is so all-inclusive as to be non-existent, IMO.

I won’t defend the tardy myself, I DO blame them for choosing to be rude to me. If I’m wrong, they’ll tell me what’s going on when the arrive, and I will change my mind and keep my good opinion of them. If they just show up late, with a “what can you do?” attitude, well, I could explain at length or briefly (HELLO, alarm clock and watch alarm), or I can decide they’re inconsiderate bastard if they make a habit of it, and associate with people who choose to care about the feelings of others.

Not that complicated, really.

StarvingbutStrongI feel your pain! I HATE having to write people up or take someone to task, it literally makes me sick to my stomach, because I have a problem with avoiding conflict. But I started writing people up after finding that it’s never just one time, or occasionally, for some people. And, besides the 2 that were fired, several others who I was forced to write up suddenly became punctual when they found out they’d been written up for arriving late.

This is the kind of tardiness that is pretty much endemic, IMO, people who just can’t be arsed to show up until you show them the consequences otherwise. Both rude and dangerous to your employment.

I’m not just a coworker, I’m also their shift supervisor, so it’s NOT someone else’s problem. If I don’t “put it on the record”, it can be swept under the rug pretty much indefinitely. I don’t even care when it happens occasionally, shit happens. (by occasionally, I mean once a month or so)

But I don’t know if these tardy people don’t notice how often they do it or don’t care. I’ve always spoken to them personally before the instance I write them up for, to let them know it’s about to become their problem instead of mine, and why. And yet every person I’ve verbally cautioned, I’ve also had to write up.
The fact that once their job was on the line, their behavior changes, tells me it’s not something out of their control. But it’s pretty selfish IMO to force me to take it to that point. Basically, they’re saying, as long as YOU’RE the only one inconvenienced, even once it’s pointed out in no uncertain terms, I still just don’t care.

And the sad thing is, while they’re on their way out, YEP, I continue to do their work and their projects until they’ve eventually burned their last bridge.

Actually, I should be glad that tardiness is usually the first sign that someone can’t be arsed to do their job. At least it’s something I can document! (the sad thing? We swipe in to get into the building! It’s not like I can falsify this stuff, in fact I can pull up months of OTHER instances if I wanted to!)

But it sucks if you’re just the coworker and your supervisor won’t follow up. I’ve had that happen to me also, where it’s something more nebulous like unfinished work, and you don’t want to pick a fight, cause you have to WORK with these people. Le sigh. Work hard. Working with slackers harder.:frowning:

578

[QUOTE=snermy]

I totally agree btw, with your position that we shouldn’t assume malice.
But the OP is about CAN YOU, or CAN YOU NOT choose. Somehow it is being recast as “are people intentionally late? and if they’re unintentionally late/have difficulty being on time, should they be blamed?”
[/quote]

To the question “can you or can you not choose” the answer is “some people can, some people can’t, and amongst the ones who can, it is for some far more difficult than it is for others.”

If you want to leave the discussion off at an answer to that question, then there you go. Not a very interesting conversation to be had there, though, it seems to me. :slight_smile:

Also, I’m not clear as to why you are confused by about my intentions in posting on this thread. I’ve seen some bad arguments I’ve tried to correct, and I’ve seen some good arguments I thought didn’t get the airtime they deserved and so I emphasized them, and I’ve seen some good arguments left unmade so I’ve made them myself. Is this insufficient justifcation for my participation?

-FrL-

579

[QUOTE=Stratocaster]
Doesn’t seem like a meaningful distinction. Would you wait longer for someone, someone let’s say who is almost always punctual, if he was walking to meet you, but called ahead to say he sprained his ankle and would be late as a result? If the answer is “yes,” then you’re extending a courtesy in recognition of something beyond his control that you do not extend to the chronic latester who just rolls in whenever he does. And if that’s the case, then you are assessing something different, ISTM, in the latter’s lateness, an assessment that clearly seems to imply that you don’t think it’s beyond his control. And if it is not beyond his control…you see where I’m going, I’m sure.
[/quote]

Unfortunately, I don’t. In all seriousness, completely non-snarkily, I am reporting: I haven’t understood what your argument is in the above.

Saying how I would address the cases you describe:

If I know a person is usually on time, and I know they have had a delay, and there is no particularly bad consequence to my waiting for them, then sure, I’ll wait for them.

If I know a person is usually late, and I know in this case they’ve had a delay, and there is no particularly bad consequence to my waiting for them, then sure, I’ll wait for them.

If I know a person is usally late, and I have no idea whether there is anything delaying them unduly this time or not other than their own bad habits, and there is no particularly bad consequence to my waiting for them, then sure, I’ll wait for them.

If I know a person is usually on time, and I know in this case they have a delay, and there would be some sufficiently bad consequences to my waiting for them, then I will not wait for them.

If I know they are usually late, and they’ve had a delay, and there are bad consequences to my waiting, then I will not wait.

If I know they are usually late, and I have no idea whether anything is presently delaying them other than their bad habits, nd there are bad consequences to my waiting for them, then I will not wait.

Has this list of cases addressed your concern about my position?

It doesn’t seem to me to be so, but I am not one hundred percent certain I’ve understood your question.

My apologies for my lack of comprehension.

-FrL-

580

[QUOTE=Frylock]
To the question “can you or can you not choose” the answer is “some people can, some people can’t, and amongst the ones who can, it is for some far more difficult than it is for others.”

If you want to leave the discussion off at an answer to that question, then there you go. Not a very interesting conversation to be had there, though, it seems to me. :slight_smile:

Also, I’m not clear as to why you are confused by about my intentions in posting on this thread. I’ve seen some bad arguments I’ve tried to correct, and I’ve seen some good arguments I thought didn’t get the airtime they deserved and so I emphasized them, and I’ve seen some good arguments left unmade so I’ve made them myself. Is this insufficient justifcation for my participation?

-FrL-
[/QUOTE]

Nope, I assumed you were speaking from experience of having difficulty being punctual and being blamed for something you feel is out of your control. Now I know you’re another person in the vast majority who can manage your time, but for whatever reason think there are others who cannot.

On rereading parts of the thread, I realize you never said anything about personally having trouble being punctual, my apologies. And participation is justification in itself :slight_smile:

I think we’ll have to leave it at that. You for reasons I don’t know, and that you haven’t specifically pointed out (other than a general statement that you feel yourself to have been in the wrong to blame people in the past), believe those who say it can be impossible to be reasonable punctual, I disagree. I originally thought your argument was from experience, now I know it’s not.
So unless you have some personal experience to share dealing with how/why most people can’t be expected to be reasonable punctual, or cite with something new to think about, we’ll have agree to disagree.