Yep, I mostly like my job a lot. Like a giant sudoku puzzle some nights 
Late due to a flat tire, acceptable.
Late due to ADD, chronic masturbating, mental defects, OCD, blah blah blah… Well, these are serious issues, and should be accounted for in budgeting your time effectively if it affects your ability to show up on time.
So if before you leave for work, you get distracted and find it necessary to flip the light switch on and off for twenty minutes, you need to wake up twenty minutes earlier to fulfil this need and not leave your coworkers to pickup the slack for you. It’s highly disrespectful.
You would react the same toward another if he stepped on your foot accidentally or if he deliberately did so? You’d erupt in the same emotionless “ouch!”? Again, I would not, and I don’t think most people would.
Why should we assume ADD related tardiness even if the odds are one hundred million to nine against it? Is there anything else which should be given this consideration? When you said “it doesn’t matter” was that hypothetical, or real? Do you have any idea what the real percentage is? These are really quite simple questions. Why are you avoiding them? The simplest way to shut me up would be to provide an answer.
You know, it seems the argument that people must make allowances for people who are chronically late because they are suffering from some diagnosed or undiagnosed form of mental illness or brain damage could just as easily go the other way.
One of the reasons I’m always early is because I used to sincerely believe people wouldn’t wait for me and would believe they weren’t going to show up if they were even a couple of minutes late. This was due to (at the time) undiagnosed depression due to internal and external influences. I’m also impatient and hate waiting. If I apply QG’s logic as I understand it in this thread, should I then expect everyone I deal with to be on time or five minutes early lest it exacerbate the distress caused by my brain damage? If that’s the case what should be done when someone who’s chronically 5 minutes early due to mental illness and/or brain damage has to meet with someone who’s chronically 5 minutes late due to mental illness and/or brain damage? Who should accomodate whom, especially if both are undiagnosed or in denial?
By the way, I’ve found knitting works well for me as a way of killing time while waiting for friends who are running late, especially if it’s something simple, mindless, and interuptable. It also works well for killing time in doctor’s offices, mechanic’s waiting rooms, etc.
How can you possibly know what I think? Are you inside my head? Are you a mind reader?
I agree that it is relevant to the person who is late why she is late. She should base some of her actions in making an effort to be on time on what she knows about herself w.r.t. her lateness.
I don’t agree that it is relevant to the person who is waiting why the other is late. He should wait, or not, depending on the consequences. (Note that as I clarified before, its not relevant to deciding what to do right now about this situation. But of course it is relevant to deciding how to deal with the person in the future wrt making appointments etc.)
-FrL-
I believe this shows you have misunderstood QG’s point entirely. I’ll let QG speak for herself, however.
-FrL-
I normally do call and tell people I’m running late. If I’m meeting the gf, I normally give her a window and if I’m going to be outside that window, I’ll give her a call and tell her. The problem I encounter isn’t that I fail at letting people know that I’m running late when I realize it; it’s that I always realize I’m running late when it’s too late to do anything about it.
Of course, the gf is a different story, because she get’s upset when I let her know I’m running late, but if I call her on her being late (which I only do when she’s running several HOURS late, e.g., 6 hours), she get’s mad at me still (women… :rolleyes: ).
Apologies, this was a misunderstanding on my part. In general, it doesn’t seem like the people whose opinions I care about are affected by my tardiness. Anyone who would desire to end a relationship with me over my time management skills (or rather, lack thereof), considering I likely have other flaws much more worth finding unbearable, and in light of their flaws own that are also greater, they are much too focused on trivial aspects and too self-centered to be worth my emotional investment.
FWIW, I study Computer Science, so most of my exams are computing values, running algorithms, designing algorithms, etc. However, despite that, even when I have done tests with questions like “What were the causes of the Civil War?” or “Interpret such and such passages from such and such reading,” where the entire period COULD be used to answer the question, I never had that problem. My technical writing is generally very dense and succinct, and I stop writing when I’m satisfied that the grader will mark the answer correct rather than when I’m sure I’ve necessarily answered the question fully to my own satisfaction (usually much longer than necessary). Unlike my time skils, I am accutely aware of those sorts of expectations andcan almost always meet them to the t.
Those are not relevantly similar situations. I didn’t say motivation is never relevant–I even pointed out a case when it importantly is relevant w.r.t. lateness.
The consequences of someone stepping on my foot accidentally and of someone stepping on my foot on purpose are different. If it was an accident, no further immediate incident is likely. If it was on purpose, further immediate incident is likely.
Now, the consequences of someone being late to an appointment with me do not differ depending on the reason for the person’s lateness. So the reason is irrelevant.*
But, the consequences for future episodes of appointment keeping do differ. If the lateness is due to accidental delay, then there are likely to be no consequences in this regard. If the lateness is due to bad habits, then there are likely to be consequences in this regard.
So, when deciding whether to make appointments with this person, one should take into account the reasons for that person’s lateness in the past.
When deciding whether to wait for a person who is late right now, the reasons for his lateness are not relevant.**
You see how nicely it all works out?
-FrL-
*Cases could be constructed, of course. So lets say if the consequences don’t differ (and they usually don’t in this case) then the reason is irrelevant.
**You might, of course, decide to “teach them a lesson” so to speak, by pointedly not waiting for them. I’d say you can be justified in doing this. But its justified due to the fact that you know that the long term consequences of the person’s habits are likely to harm you or him or both. The short term consequences of his lateness–i.e., whether you’re going to get to the reservation on time or whatever–do not differ according to the reason for his lateness. If you were thinking only of the short term consequences, the reason for lateness would be irrelevant and you would, as I have said, have no reason to adjust your waiting time due to your judgments as to the reason for the person’s lateness.
Why can’t you set an alarm when you sit down to play the piano?
That would require giving a Flying Fuck. If he doesn’t care to associate with people who would be put off by habitual tardiness, how could we expect him to do something that would result in actually making an appointment?
I agree and note that distinction.
I would say that I am more frustrated with those that insist I enable the late behavior rather than come to some sort of compromise that makes the late behavior less of an inconvenience to both of us [when I continue a relationship with a latester]. I know it’s hard to keep on a schedule, as there are some things I inherently remember, and then others I misremember. (example: I took my guinea pig to the vet a week early to the day, and it was completely my fault. I was surprised when they offered to see me anyway. Although it was kind of them, I would not expect it in the future, and will be more diligent about accurately marking all of my calendars with the correct date/time in the future.) I think we’re all coping in one moment or another with something that hinders our ability to predict the outcome of our actions.
I hate to say it, but I’d be super pissed if the boss sympathized with her, regardless of whether I had to redo it. The fact that you still got punished even though it was clearly the fault of the latester is pretty bad, IMO. Have you tried to talk with the boss about the fact that you’ve tried different methods of trying to get her to get her stuff in on time and she STILL fails to do so? You getting in trouble regardless of your attempts to prevent it is bad management somewhere.
The “Oh, what can you do?” part of a lot of latesters is what bugs me. If I can at least get a valid excuse and an “I’m sorry” when someone’s late, I’m a million times more forgiving than when someone just chalks up being late to how things work in their world and that’s just something that I will have to adjust for. If I can’t control having to interact with this person, am I SOL because they decide that it’s more important to not compromise and try to cope a little better with their time issues or try a new method to see if it’d help keep them on the ball? I’m not here to be the personal psychologist to any of my friends, acquaintances, or coworkers, so, really, I don’t think it’s my job to try and [mis]diagnose people because there might be a small chance they have something that is completely out of their control.
Yes, I have already bowed to your Spock-like detachment. I, OTOH, react to disrespect–even disrespect that has the same consequences as another unintentional act–by being pissed off, at least to some extent. When someone flips me off on the road, even if that act has no real consequences, I don’t react positively to it. That doesn’t mean I react with road rage, or pull over to weep in a fetal position. But I recognize that the person is disrespecting me, and this has an effect on my basic human need to be respected, however minor the effect. I have never, not even once, reacted to such a gesture with completely unemotional detachment. The effect may have been slight, gone in just a second, but there was an effect.
Most people understand this eminently human reaction and don’t treat others with disrespect, either blatant disrespect or “negligent disrespect,” because, well, it isn’t nice. This is so self-evident to me, I don’t know how else to explain it. That this could be a matter of complete irrelevance to someone else is difficult for me to understand or believe. But I guess that’s just me.
Its probably a good idea to be sensitive to whether a person is showing proper respect, as that is likely to have an effect on consequences in later interactions. (And it may even be a good idea to be sensitive to issues of respect even when you are not likely to further interact with the particular person in question, just so you can keep “in practice” so to speak and thereby ready to deploy the correct attitudes in situations where the consequences will matter.)
So, that’s settled I guess.
But in a sense, the subject has now been changed. Where you and I disagree now is as to the question whether habitual lateness is a sign of disrespect. I think you’ve probably already seen what I have to say about that topic.
-FrL-
I don’t reply to folks who deliberately misunderstand me. Or appear to.
It’s all about non-renewable resources, and the wasting thereof.
A business associate of mine died the other day at the age of 46. 2 days prior to his death he sends me an email with an updated schedule, the last I heard from the seemingly-healthy man.
He had 46 years. He didn’t know he had “only” 46 years. None of us know how much time we have, how much lifetime we have, but our time, the time of our lives, is the single most valuable resource we have, one that we will never be able to replenish, one in which we remain uncertain as to how much we have left…
2.4 million people died in the US in a recent one-year period, (Excel file) .8% of the population, not all of them expecting it.
I am being asked to spare feelings based upon a miniscule chance that the person wasting my time has a form of ADD that causes them to be chronically late… but I hear nothing from the Latent* about the equally miniscule chance that they are wasting part of the last year of my life, maybe even the last days or the last minutes.
Somebody might have caused Paul to be late the last day of his life. He might have wanted to leave the office at 5:15, but couldn’t because the guy he was carpooling with was wrapped up in some coding and “wanted to get this done”, therefore Paul left at 5:30… dead three hours later, the 15 minutes delay constituting nearly 10% of his remaining time. His remaining life.
And that’s my point: the clock is always ticking and, regardless of whether the Latent has ADD, being chronically late is nothing more than the theft of the other persons life, a constantly-diminishing non-renewable resource… but only for them. Not for the person making them late… they got to spend their time as desired.
See?
It’s not merely “our time” we’re asking you to save and respect, it’s “our time here on Earth”. And, as such, yes, I can and will take it personally when my life is wasted due to others habitual lateness.
So, if I said anything in this thread to cause heated emotions, my apologies… I don’t mean to waste people’s time by them getting riled over a mere conversation.
Thank you.
*such a better term than “latesters”, don’t y’all think?
Wait, so, its about some kind of right to hurt others feelings for you?
And you feel put upon when you are not given the opportunity to hurt other peoples feelings in these kinds of situations?
We’ve been talking about whether you should be upset at the late person, whether you should make accomodations for them, etc. You’ve added a new dimension to the discussion.
It has been explained in the thread already why this is not the case. Its a long thread, though.
-FrL-
And people wonder why people are fond of :rolleyes: It’s shorthand for ‘groannn’ or ‘give me a break’, or ‘you have got to be kidding’.
Honestly, can you possibly make this case with a straight face? It annoys me to no end when people, pretending to be debating seriously, pull these sorts of ploys.
All that says to me is “I’m ticked, probably unjustifiably so, so I’ll fabricate this grand drama thinking someone will be stupid enough to believe it’s a valid argument”.
Nobody is and it’s not.
Why should we assume ADD related tardiness even if the odds are one hundred million to nine against it? Is there anything else which should be given this consideration? When you said “it doesn’t matter” was that hypothetical, or real? Do you have any idea what the real percentage is?