The gist of what several have said is ‘When you are late, you are being disrespectful. And the disrespect involved in being late is part of why I generally succeed in being on time.’
That’s a claim of moral superiority, if respect is a moral concept.
-Kris
Thank you. But as Dinsdale already stated, your cites suggest that habitual tardiness is one of several possible symptoms of ADD, but not that lateness itself necessitates having the disorder.
Crohn’s disease can cause flatulence, but every soul who breaks wind after eating broccoli isn’t afflicted with Crohn’s.
I believe QG’s point is that one ought not to condemn someone who one finds is always late, because for all one knows that person really actually can’t make himself be on time consistently.
-FrL-
Quite right. I readily allow that there are people with mental defects that make it virtually impossible for them to be routinely punctual. Just as I allow for the fact that there are people with a mental defect that renders them unable to leave the house without debilitating anxiety. Who would argue that there are a minority of people with all kinds of mental issues that make “normal” behavior difficult?
But the fact that some minority of latesters may have an excuse does not lead to the conclusion that it’s always wrong to call people on their lateness, much as Quiddity would like that to be the case.
That’s not what I’m hearing him say. Any whiff of moral superiority in any instance ought to be sanctioned for the ignorant slander it clearly is. Or something like that.
Frylock’s got it right. And I’m a she. And, again, people with ADD are 4% or more of the adult population; it’s not like ALS or something, which is indeed rare. Too, ADD is not the only condition which damages the frontal lobe/executive function so the real proportion of people you know who might have this damage could be fairly high.
OK,for the sake of the argument, respect is a moral concept. It still does not follow that calling a person disrespectful is a claim of moral superiority. If a friend advises you not to cheat on your taxes, is he asserting moral superiority over you? If a mother warns her child not to curse, is she asserting moral superiority? If you believe that respect is a moral concept, why do you believe that it is OK to break your word by choosing to do something other than show up on time for an appointment? Is telling the truth not a moral concept?
If someone absolutely is incapable of prioritizing his life in such a way as to be on time, then that person cannot be on time for anything. Al others are choosing to place more importance on their time than to the time of those to whom they promised an appearance. It is really quite that simple. Don’t make promises that you can’t keep. Grade school morality. If asserting that I have, at the very least, the personal pride and moral integrity of a sixth grader is asserting moral superiority, then so be it. It is not much of an assertion, and is a mark that an adult should be ashamed of falling short of.
I honestly don’t understand why, for people who OBVIOUSLY don’t have some sort of mental defect causing them to be late (most of the people I’ve met who are consistently late do not have a disorder that’d cause lateness), it is acceptable to expect me to want to wait later to meet with them when I can do other things with that wasted time. JKellyMap made an excellent point by noting that computers are a horrible distraction for a lot of situations of lateness-causing, and another person earlier in the thread mentioned that a lot of the time they were late was caused by computer use distracting their [possibly limited] sense of time when they could make it on time if the computer wasn’t so distracting. I understand this distraction, and when I’ve got somewhere to go, I try to avoid the things that I know are distracting.
Why is my time less valuable than the person who is habitually late? I’m generally a busy person, and rarely have close friends who are habitually late because I don’t have the spare time to waste when meeting habitually late people for social occasions. There are very few people for whom I make exceptions to the “lateness” issue, and one of them has improved drastically now that he’s acclimated to a regular schedule.
I honestly do not believe that more than 10% of people who are habitually late have NO control over their own behavior.
I think you’re being extremely generous with that estimate. Even accounting for the percentage that may have ADD, this is a still ultimately a behavioral problem, and one that can be managed. I would not expect a blind person to be able to read a billboard or a quadruple-amputee to breakdance (excepting maybe headspin moves, but even those would require assistance). But a person with poor concentration—whether or not it results from a diagnosed disorder—can use tools (like making notes, lists, setting alarms, leaving earlier, etc.) to help improve their punctuality, if they really want to. But that last clause is the sticking point: it has to be important enough to them to make that extra effort. Clearly for some, it is not worth it for many of their social engagements.
And that’s actually fine, if that’s the choice they make. But I believe it is fundamentally a choice, and throwing up one’s hands and saying “I have ADD, therefore I am incapable of being on time” is not going to get a lot of traction with me.
4% of the population, if that’s accurate, does not mean that 4% of the population has issues with being punctual. Some ADD folks have difficulty with being on time. It is a possible (not inevitable) symptom. That’s not the first time this is being pointed out to you. At what point do we assume you are debating dishonestly? Are we there yet?
It seems like a perfectly reasonable argument to me.
If someone is consistently late, it may be the case, for all you know, that that person is literally incapable of being reliably on time. Therefore, while its fine to refrain from relying on such people, it is not okay, without further evidence, to think them in any way morally deficient or of deficient character in some other sense.
This argument does not rely on a notion that most or even many late people have problems with their brain. It only relies on the fact that at least some of them, and that a proportion which, while small, is large enough to make it likely you know at least one such person.
Given that fact, the argument appears to me to be a sound one.
Is it a misfire? In other words, does its conclusion fail to have significance because no one here is judging others’ characters based on their being late? That seems implausible to me, as the term “respect” is being thrown around quite a bit. To say that someone is consistently disrespectful is to impugn their character.
-FrL-
Absolutely not. I appreciate a positive intellectual discussion even if it is about one of my “quirks”.
I think this is a little bit misleading. For instance, I can guarantee I get to work on time every morning if I wake up 45 minutes beforehand, don’t eat, don’t shower, don’t brush my hair, etc. If I just roll out of bed, put on my shoes, get in the car and drive, I’ll be there on time every morning. The difference comes in when I start adding extra things between when the plan is made (or the preparation for the event begins) and the actual onset. When we add taking a shower, getting dressed, having breakfast, etc. it makes my ability to estimate the time it requires go straight out the window; hence my response that I could get there on time if I forego the shower, etc.
I’m unsure if this is the result of a difference in philosophy or a difference in our actual schedules… I just generally can’t allow that amount of leeway for earliness. While I agree that it is generally preferable to be early, that is not always reasonable. I want to show respect for the time of other people, especially since I’m taking my own time to meet with them, but at the same time I think it’s a bit extreme to show such complete disregard for my own. I you’re right, in that I very much COULD show up early for just about everything, but in my mind, that seems just as bad, except toward myself. I could set all my clocks ahead by some indeterminable amount of time (and in fact, at times I HAVE done that). If I could find a solution where I was just 5-10 minutes early for most things, that, to me, would be ideal; if the only solution is showing up 45 minutes early because I’m now grossly overestimating instead of grossly underestimating, it seems to just twist the problem without resolving it; naming, poorly judging how long things will take ahead of time AND remembering all things that will be involved.
I want to be careful with this one. I don’t dispute that choice is involved, per se; I do dispute that the choice I’m making is objectively and consciously to be late and/or to disrespect the other person. In this particular case, as I realize more and more the poor example that it is, the choice, as I saw it, was “risk failing or not”. Not only was tardiness wasn’t a concern the first day, not because I dismissed it, but because it didn’t even enter my mind as one. On the second and third, I had thought it was addressed, but it was clearly addressed poorly on my part.
In this case, that was precisely the issue. I was so concerned with ensuring I was getting the last couple of things on the study sheet covered that the more obviously important point of actually sitting for the exam took a back seat (NPI).
This is a difficult concept for me to explain, but I can try giving a similar (but opposite) example that actually results in me being early (believe it or not). There is a stretch of road a near my home that I travel on a fairly regular basis and have been for several years. It is about 10-12 miles and, when I first began travelling on it, it took about 25-30 minutes on average. Because of that, that stretch of road forever lives in my head as 30 minutes. Over the next few years, traffic got much worse and it turned into 35-40 minutes and I was chronically late when I drove on it because it still lived as 30 minutes to me. Recently, they’ve been build a number of overpasses resulting in more than half of the lights disappearing and making it a 20-25 minute road again. Assuming no other variables are involved, I still plan 30 minutes for that road and will actually show up earlier than expected because of that. However, because that is the main component in that trip, if I had something else to do along the way, I would invariably still only plan 30 minutes, and be late yet again.
So let me try this from a different angle.
In your post addressing the same topic in the Pit, you gave the argument that: “Time sense is an ‘executive function’. It’s governed by a specific area in the brain. A lot of people have deficits in that area of the brain. It’s a fairly easy spot to fall on or get hit on when you’re young.”
and you noted in that same post that: “Life would be so much easier if people would learn to understand others rather than always finding reasons to condemn them, shun them, or cast them off.”
Now, extending your argument and quoting the entire paragraph of the Wikipedia article you used as reference in your post, which is:
(bold added)
So using your same reference and extending your argument, it could be argued that rapists and child molesters have frontal lobe damage and therefore do not have the impulse control to control their sexual behavior. So we should try to “understand them” and not find reasons to “condemn them, shun them, or cast them off.”
Oddly, I agree with that assessment ~to some extent~. It’s possible that some people who are displaying inappropriate sexual behavior have some damage to their frontal lobe. The difficulty (and this is the same difficulty with those who are chronically late) is that we can’t know which people are affected by frontal lobe damage and which are not. Science has not progressed that far. So I personally don’t find myself to be morally superior to any human being. But I think that’s a pretty unpopular viewpoint around here, given all the threads of moral outrage that I’ve seen. And as a society, it seems acceptable to “condemn them, shun them, or cast them off.” And I have to agree that something should be done so that people who have shown to have a propensity to hurt others are not in a position to continue hurting them. But I could make the same argument for the chronically late, which is the same argument others have made. Many have cut the chronically late people out of their lives to avoid the damage that they can potentially cause.
And in those threads of moral outrage about rapists and child molesters, I haven’t seen you (Quiddity Glomfuster) speaking up for the fact that moral indignation is not called for since the people committing these acts may have frontal lobe damage.
While my view may not be popular, it has the advantage of being internally logically consistent.
So, will I be seeing you in those threads of moral outrage about those acts speaking out for those who might have frontal lobe damage and therefore did not make the choice to act, or does your argument only hold true for those who are chronically late? If you chose the latter, please explain the discrepancy.
If you don’t do anything after you wake up, where does the 45 minutes go?
You’ve just answered the question. Punctual people consistently choose to be 45 minutes early in order to be punctual instead of telling themselves it’s not fair to themselves for doing it. It is also why punctual people sometimes seem resentful to those people who are chronically late who feel that the same rule doesn’t apply to them.
This is the crux of the point I’ve been trying to make. For all I know, I most likely have some form of ADD or somethign similar. I’ve never been diagnosed because I’ve never had enough of a problem coping that it necessitated an intervention (eg, I was intelligent enough to overcome my inability to pay attention in class).
However, that being said, I won’t use that, my memory (or rather lack thereof), or poor foresight skills as an excuse. When I’m late to an appointment, I apologize, and if it results in a fee, I pay without complaint.
I do no claim that it is impossible for me to control, or that there is not conscious choice involved. I do claim that it is difficult, likely moreso than for the average individual, and that the choices involved are often either poor (ie, poorly estimating time), or ignorant (ie, forgetting about other events that must also occur), or oblivious (ie, concerned with other aspects to the point that punctuality is not even a thought at all). I AM making a conscious effort, and Lord knows I’ve made some slow progress in my several years of being a “grown up”.
In our society, it is a flaw and a negative characteristic; but I believe it to be unfair to conclude that the individual is also necessarily rude, disrepectful, or otherwise immoral. I concede that there are individuals who are absolutely disrespectful in their tardiness; I will also concede that, at times, my tardiness has been blatantly disrespectful. However, if I am late for one of the above reasons, that is, not a plainly consicous choice to be late, or poor effort at planning (I am differentiating between a poor effort and a poor skill or result), I only ask that you not take it as a personal insult.
Apologies, I was unclear. The assumption was that the 45 minutes was for the commute. If I wake up 45 minutes before I had to be to work, roll right out of bed into the driver’s seat and drive, I’ll be on time. The moment I have to begin estimating and calculating for a shower, and getting dressed, the error grows exponentially. I swear, one day I can take a shower and it is 5 minutes, and the next day it is 20, and I have NO IDEA what I could have possibly done differently, cleaned anything extra (I clean everywhere everyday, thank you 
), or taken extra time.
But that’s the point, people who are always 45 minutes early are chronically early. It seems to me to be using a hand grendae to kill a house fly. This solution resolves the tardiness problem by introducing a more socially acceptable, but no less destructive problem.
When I consider punctuality, it means, to me, and ability to plan my day and stick to that schedule fairly closely, always favoring early. THIS is the ability I lack. Of course I can completely over-compensate for my inability to estimate time, but that doesn’t solve the underlying problem. Further, it introduces more opportunity for distraction, potentially complicating it further. Am I punctual if I show up for work 3 hours early or am I neurotic?
A punctual person says “It takes me 45 minutes to get ready in the morning (whatever that entails), and 30 minutes to get to work, plus 15 minutes for traffic; therefore, if I have to be at work at 9:00, I should wake up at 7:30.” For me, I follow the same logic, but it doesn’t always take 45, it’s variable by an indefinite amount for an indeterminable reason. If I’m running late because of that, then there you go. If I’m running early, the probability of me getting distracted grows enormously, resulting again in my tardiness.
Even worse, as I have attempted to explain in previous posts, if any of those estimates are grossly wrong (even if on well reasoned intellectual level, I know better), that can only further complicate things. I know, as I think about it now, that my workout, after all is said and done, takes about 3 hours; thus, if I can consciously plan for that, I will likely not be late. However, if I think of my Satyrday as relax, workout, see the gf, etc; I am no longer breaking down a single event, and the indeterminant value of my workout becomes 2 1/2 hours at a glance (as that is the actual amount of time spent working out), even though, as I am well aware on a deeper analysis, that that is an underestimate (because the workout also involves changing cloths, going to the gym, etc.). Generally, when I’m making that kind of time estimate, it’s likely to be when I’m sitting here watching TV trying to figure out how long I have before I have to go to the gym, not because I am closely analyzing my time, and so my thought process is brief, and, while completely accurate with the actual times I’m selecting, it’s deficient as to all the events that must unfold, and thus constantly resulting in an underestimation.
Thus, I’m not oblvious to time (though my relationship with it is tenuous at best), I am simply bad at planning. But even that, I think, is not the reason in it’s entirety. I also find I am constantly overestimating what I can accomplish in a day, or any distinct period of time, and thus I am constantly underestimating the time things take, I am constantly late, and I am constantly disappointed. The only times I find I can accomplish everything I intend to do is when I intend to do very, very little (ie, a “lazy” day).
But I don’t think even those two are the entire reasons alone. As stated before, I have a distinct inability to 100% focus on the task at hand for any reasonable amount of time (ie, more than a couple minutes). Distraction immediately leads to unplanned use of time, inevitably resulting in lateness.
I see that you mean by ‘a different angle’, taking what I’ve said and stretching it to a ridiculous extreme. Othewise known as the fallacy of converse accident.
To the point where it becomes fallacy. You can do it if it amuses you, but it’s neither honest nor logical.
There are findings showing that the most violent of criminals do indeed have significant brain damage. Point being if it’s broken, someday it might be repairable.
You’ll want to read up on PET scans and SPECT scans. MRIs can also be used. Science has actually progressed pretty impressivlely in this regard in the past 5 years or so.
See this
and this and this and this for starters.
Yep, well it seems that climbing on high horses seems to be a very popular sport these days. Which is very depressing.
Society used to accept condemning, shunning, and casting off people with epilepsy. I’m not all that fond of accepting ‘society’ as moral authority.
Then they’re drama queens. ‘Damage they can potentially cause’? Puhleeze. At best it’s an inconvenience. People need to get over themselves. Seriously.
I’m totally against the death penalty and I do think it’s much more useful for us all to keep those folks alive and study them to figure out how somebody’s dear little boy or girl can grow up to turn into someone who harms others. And learn how to cure or prevent it.
It is my impression that SDMB has a lot of members who can be persuaded by logic, who will listen to information like the information I’ve presented here, and who are perhaps not as willing to find ill in their fellow-humans.
But I could be wrong, in which case I’ll flee this place as well and await the opening of the Dalai Lama centre in Vancouver where maybe (maybe) I’ll find some like-mindeds. Because all the hate I see does my heart violence and I need some refuge so that I can continue to function.
Hmmm…I suspect you harbor a misconception about what it means to be punctual. I don’t think anyone can time their showers down to the second, or account for every little thing that might happen in the morning. Punctual people allow, as a matter of course, extra time to get where they’re going on time. They might be 45 minutes early one day, or only 5 minutes early the next day, but they are always early. The time they agreed to be there is a limit, not an average. Punctual people do NOT consider it unreasonable to do what is necessary to be on time. They do not consider being early as a waste of their time. What I’m getting from you is not that you are incapable of being on time, but that you don’t want to bother to be on time, because you consider it an unreasonable use of your time and effort. I’m just going by what you wrote, so please correct me if I’m misinterpreting what you said.
O.K., but do you understand what other people are saying about respect? What you are saying is that you consider your time to be more valuable than the time of the person who’s waiting for you, whereas most people try to show respect to others by viewing the other person’s time as more valuable. They don’t consider that to be “extreme” at all.
Most people wouldn’t consider 45 minutes early as a big deal. Bring a book. In what way is the problem not solved?
I’m still thinking you’re choosing to be late, though. If you hadn’t expressed your disdain for being early, I wouldn’t think so, but you made it pretty clear that you have some sort of objection to being early. As someone pointed out earlier, if you were merely bad at estimating time, wouldn’t you be early 50% of the time and late 50% of the time? That’s not the case, is it?
Yeah, that’s what my boss does. I believe that, on some level, he is choosing to be late. He is a highly intelligent person, and certainly possesses the reasoning skills to determine how long a trip will take. But he is somehow failing to prioritize correctly, even though he is smart enough to figure out what the priorities should be. In his case, I suspect it is a form of OCD that is overriding his rational decision-making ability.
Anyway, thanks for sharing your thoughts with us. I hope I didn’t come off as condescending - I probably did. It’s not like I’m perfect; I’ve certainly been guilty of doing many of these things myself at one time or another.
No, this was an example of reductio ad absurdum, if anything, which is not a logical fallacy. The comparison he drew was based on the same premise as your position, which means it isn’t an argument such as the example in your cite: “If we allow people with glaucoma to use medical marijuana then everyone should be allowed to use marijuana.”
You toss notions like “dishonest” and “ignorant” around rather freely, don’t you?