As the man with the fish head said, “It’s a trap!”
You are trying to reason someone out of a position he didn’t reason his way into. You cannot educate, let alone debate someone who is wilfully ignorant. Hell, he’s about 3/4 of a century off in terms of a Palestinian declaration of/demand for independence, which actually first occurred at the Third Palestinian Arab Congress in 1920.
He doesn’t know the history, he doesn’t want to know the history.
Jake, China Town, yadda yadda.
It should be easy enough to show that the first “Palestinian” declaration of independence was in 1920 not 1988.
I did a few google searches and could not find anything.
I think you are just making stuff up. But of course if anyone asks you for a cite/quote/link, you will no doubt dismiss it as a “fetch quest”
By the way, the Wikipedia article on “State of Palestine” says nothing (as far as I can tell) about a Palestinian declaration of independence in 1920.
Of course, Wikipedia has been known to be wrong. But if I have a choice between Wikipedia and an anonymous guy on the internet who refuses to back up his claims, I’m inclined to go with Wikipedia.
The All-Palestine Government of 1948?
Readers should note that a Google search for “Third Palestinian Arab Congress” has, in the first 9 hits, two google ebooks (including one opaquely named The Origins of Palestinian Nationalism) and a link to procon.org. Fully 1/3 of the first 9 hits have perfectly adequate answers, I haven’t checked the rest so it may be higher than 1/3. And yet, Brazil tells us that he can find none.
Curiouser and curiouser.
I’m not sure what you are referring to. Can you give more specifics?
Want to bet he’s never heard of it?
Edit: Simulpost.
Here is from the first hit:
Nothing about a declaration of independence. But clear indication of “firm opposition to Zionism.”
From the second hit:
Again, no declaration of independence, clear indication of “opposition to Zionism”
From the third hit:
No declaration of independence. Clear opposition to Zionism.
Indeed.
Edit:
Does anyone besides Finnagain wish to dispute my assertion that “the first ‘Palestinian’ declaration of independence was in 1988.”?
Again, readers should be aware of what’s occurring in this thread. Take note, in particular, of Brazil’s third quote. In black and white it details how the Third Palestinian Arab Congress adopted a resolution calling for Palestinian autonomy, a ‘native government’ and representative assembly. Note, also, he has answers.com as one of his resources, but for some reason still has not managed to read the ebooks. And evidently he could find none of these before during his exhaustive searching, and following requests were not disingenuous fetch-quests. Nope.
Let it be said, at least, that those of us who are generally labelled as pro-Israel on the Dope are not unwilling to police awful arguments cast forward by anti-Palestinians whose arcs may appear tangential to ours.
To quote someone in this thread: “So what?”
Palestinian identity does not hinge on when someone wrote a declaration of independence.
Yes and note that there is no declaration of independence contained therein.
Note also that there were serious proposals for a Jewish state in Palestine long before 1920.
These facts are easily observed by anyone.
FinnAgain and brazil84, you both need to stop “noting” what your opponent has or has not posted.
Make your own points and just let the reader decide which of you is closer to the mark.
[ /Moderating ]
And in that spirit, brazil84, just what is your point? Are you merely niggling over the dates of various declarations, or are you asserting that the Palestinian national identity movement was created in 1948, or something else?
Roger dodger.
This whole debate is the flipside to the debate over the supposed “legitimacy” of Israel.
Just as that debate invariably devolves into learned (but heated) exchanges over obscure topics like late 19th century Turkish land-use laws, this one devolves into learned (but heated) exchanges over various public declarations by nationalist groups, and ethnic migrations in the last century or two.
The pointlessness of the exercise can easily be demonstrated by assuming, purely for the purpose of argument, that the most extreme position taken by each “side” contesting the “legitimacy” of the other was 100% correct. Would that really change anything?
Assume that those contesting Israeli “legitimacy” are correct and that the early Zionists had zero legal rights to the land they occupied. If this could be proved, would any Israelis pack their bags for (say) Poland and leave?
Now assume that those contesting Palestinan “legitimacy” are correct and Palestinian nationalism is a sham device invented purely as a weapon against Israel. If this could be proved, what would it mean for Palestinians currently living in the WB, Gaza Strip and various refugee camps?
The point here is that, whatever the origins, we must deal with things as they are.
I’ve made a lot of points in this thread. My most recent response to Finnagain dealt with his dispute of my earlier assertion that the first Palestinian declaration of independence was in 1988. Actually he went further than disputing my assertion, contending that "He doesn’t know the history, he doesn’t want to know the history. "
So perhaps you could call it counter-niggling.
Anyway, my basic point about “Palestinian” idendity is that the concept of “Palestinians” was recently invented (and continues to be used) for the purpose of undermining Israel. I have no problem with the concept that groups and nations have been and are regularly invented. Indeed, I have clearly stated that I would support a Palestinian state if the credible evidence showed that it was being established for constructive purposes and not simply to undermine Israel.
I think it would mean a lot, since the pressure would start building on Arab governments to stop discriminating against Palestinians, to stop keeping them stateless generation after generation, and so on.
I would say definitely yes. And that more importantly it would undermine Israeli confidence in its position.
I think you need to ask yourself that question, since you are the one who seems to put significance on the fact that the concept of “Palestinians” started to develop before Israel was established as a state.
Agreed. (Of course the same holds true for Jewish identity.)
…*chrstfx#…does not compute…
WHAT?
WHO put significance on the concept of “Palestinian” being a recent construct??