Is school prayer illegal in Canada?

[Sublight]

@Liberal

First of all, the Buddha was not a god, and didn’t solicit prayer.

Then simply replace the words “official Buddha” with “official Buddhist altar,” because prayers are most certainly made at the Buddhist temples around here.

[Malthus]

When I was going to high school in Ontario (early '80s), we had in our homeroom class a morning prayer. It could be from any religion whatsoever, or a “secular saying” for those not religious. Each day, a kid in turn got to read a prayer either from the official book (which had all major religions represented) or one they brought in.

I don’t know if this was school policy or universal or what.

Needless to say, as a budding geek, I chose to direct my prayer to Cthulhu. “In his house in R’ley …”.

[Rysto]

@Polycarp

It’s also turning this into a Great Debate – not a horrible idea, but I’d love to hear from Canadians how the interaction between the religion-based public schools and the Charter of Rights and Freedoms works out in practice in Canada, before we get into debating any religion vs. education issues on a more general basis for the dozenth time.

There’s a specific exemption in the Charter:

@Section 29 of the Charter

Nothing in this Charter abrogates or derogates from any rights or privileges guaranteed by or under the Constitution of Canada in respect of denominational, separate or dissentient schools.

[Omega_Glory]

@glee

I objected to the OP’s assumption that making school prayer illegal wasn’t tolerant.
I further thought it was a safe bet that this is an attitude based on a US Protestant Christian God. Here in England we do have an official State religion, but we don’t have official school prayer.

I don’t know what religion the OP is, but IIRC, he’s not an American. Lots of people (in the U.S.) think that it’s illegal for individual students to pray on their own, which isn’t true, but if that’s what the OP thought, that might be why he considered it intolerant. When I was about eight my teacher thought I was praying for some reason, and took the time to yell that I wasn’t allowed to do that at school, so even some teachers believe it.

[BluePitbull]

@Omega Glory

I don’t know what religion the OP is, but IIRC, he’s not an American. Lots of people (in the U.S.) think that it’s illegal for individual students to pray on their own, which isn’t true, but if that’s what the OP thought, that might be why he considered it intolerant. When I was about eight my teacher thought I was praying for some reason, and took the time to yell that I wasn’t allowed to do that at school, so even some teachers believe it.

Yep, that is what I meant. When the two Canadians told me that prayer was illegal, I thought they meant the students can’t pray privately.

[Northern_Piper]

@alphaboi867

Alot of provinces have 2 public school systems; 1 secular, 1 Roman Catholic. Until the late 90s Quebec and Newfoundland didn’t even have secular schools. Quebec had a Catholic school system and a Protestant school system. Newfoundland had 3 or 4 differect school systems. Both Quebec and Newfoundland still have religious education in their schools (Quebec seems to be abolishing this).

Currently, only three provinces have the publicly funded separate school systems: Ontario, Saskatchewan and Alberta. The other provinces either never had them entrenched in the Constitution (Nova Scotia, PEI, New Brunswick, Manitoba, British Columbia), or abolished them by constitutional amendments (Quebec and Newfoundland & Labrador). The three territories also have publicly funded separate schools.

Note as well that in Alberta, Saskatchewan, and the territories, the separate schools can be Protestant or Roman Catholic. The religious minority in a particular school district has the right to establish a separate school division. If the Protestants are the minority, they can establish the separate school division. Both Alberta and Saskatchewan currently have at least one Protestant separate school division.

The description of how the Quebec system used to operate isn’t quite accurate. It’s correct that in the major cities, such as Montreal and Quebec, all the schools were either Protestant or Roman Catholic (termed confessional schools). However, outside the major centres, there were public schools, with the religious minority (either Protestant or Roman Catholic) in a particular district having the right to establish a separate school. However, Quebec has abolished both the confessional schools and the separate schools by a constitutional amendment: Constitution Act, 1867, s. 93A, enacted in 1997. Quebec now just has French and English schools: Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms, s. 23.

[bob_loblaw]

@Malthus

When I was going to high school in Ontario (early '80s), we had in our homeroom class a morning prayer. It could be from any religion whatsoever, or a “secular saying” for those not religious. Each day, a kid in turn got to read a prayer either from the official book (which had all major religions represented) or one they brought in.

I don’t know if this was school policy or universal or what.

Needless to say, as a budding geek, I chose to direct my prayer to Cthulhu. “In his house in R’ley …”.

you had best be joking, and therefore owe the rest of u a big old “psyche!” smiley, or you better just shut the fuck up, excepting a clarification, because i call not just shenanigans, but outright bullshit.

ontario public schools during the 1980s and before, were in all but name protestant indoctrination centres… if you wanted a different option for children, it was in the catholic indoctrination centres that were (and to this day are) organized by & under the authority of the catholic church – with only lip service paid to provincial & federal standards of tolerance .

to this day, public school & catholic school children receive quite different educations, and the only reason that is allowed to happen is that the catholic board is in effect written into the constitution.

yes, it is true that the catholic board allows non-catholics into their schools; primarily by teaching “religion” classes that indirectly tell non-catholics that they are going to hell for not blowing the pope.

the continuing survival of catholic schools in ontario, and in other canadian provinces, is a blight on the record of human rights we claim to uphold in this country. and also the major failing in the patriation of our constition & of the charter of rights and freedoms.

[Northern_Piper]

@BluePitbull

Yep, that is what I meant. When the two Canadians told me that prayer was illegal, I thought they meant the students can’t pray privately.

Sounds like the same confusion that you get in the States on this issue. The courts in at least three provinces (Manitoba, Ontario and British Columbia) have held that having the teachers or school staff lead the students in prayers is contrary to the Charter’s guarantee of freedom of religion and equality. However, those cases do not mean that students are banned from praying - just that the school staff, as government agents, cannot lead them in prayer. The same guarantee of freedom of religion protects the personal right of students to pray. As more than one person has commented on this issue over the years, so long as there are school exams, there will be prayer in schools…

There is one exception to the cases holding that school staff cannot lead students in prayer. Some years ago, a Saskatchewan human rights board of inquiry ruled that under s. 17 of the Saskatchewan Act, by which Saskatchewan entered Confederation, public school boards in Saskatchewan can authorise the use of the Lord’s Prayer at the beginning of the school day.

[Northern_Piper]

@Leaffan

In Ontario, there isn’t an official law on the books banning institutional prayer in the public system; but it is written into the policy of the public school board that religious studies are banned.

There’s no law, but there was a decision of the Ontario Court of Appeal barring staff-led school prayer, based on the Charter.

[samclem]

Moderator Note

@bob_loblaw

you had best be joking, and therefore owe the rest of u a big old “psyche!” smiley, or you better just shut the fuck up, excepting a clarification, because i call not just shenanigans, but outright bullshit.

ontario public schools during the 1980s and before, were in all but name protestant indoctrination centres… if you wanted a different option for children, it was in the catholic indoctrination centres that were (and to this day are) organized by & under the authority of the catholic church – with only lip service paid to provincial & federal standards of tolerance .

to this day, public school & catholic school children receive quite different educations, and the only reason that is allowed to happen is that the catholic board is in effect written into the constitution.

yes, it is true that the catholic board allows non-catholics into their schools; primarily by teaching “religion” classes that indirectly tell non-catholics that they are going to hell for not blowing the pope.

the continuing survival of catholic schools in ontario, and in other canadian provinces, is a blight on the record of human rights we claim to uphold in this country. and also the major failing in the patriation of our constition & of the charter of rights and freedoms.

bob_loblaw. You’re still in General Questions at this point, and your tone is a bit strong for this forum.

samclem

[Northern_Piper]

@Polycarp

It’s also turning this into a Great Debate – not a horrible idea, but I’d love to hear from Canadians how the interaction between the religion-based public schools and the Charter of Rights and Freedoms works out in practice in Canada, before we get into debating any religion vs. education issues on a more general basis for the dozenth time.

Poly, the leading case on this issue is Reference re Bill 30, An Act to Amend the Education Act (Ontario), [1987] 1 S.C.R. 1148. The Supreme Court unanimously upheld the separate school system from a constitutional challenge based on section 2 (freedom of religion) and section 15 (equality). The Court referred to section 29, which Rysto cites, but also said that even without that provision, it would have reached the same conclusion. The right to establish separate schools in Ontario was guaranteed by s. 93 of the Constitution Act, 1867, and had been a key part of the Confederation compromise in 1867. The Court concluded that the enactment of the Charter should not be taken to have repealed such an important provision by implication - a clear intention to repeal would be necessary:

@Wilson J.

This does not mean, however, that such rights or privileges [under s. 93] are vulnerable to attack under ss. 2(a) and 15 of the Charter. I have indicated that the rights or privileges protected by s. 93(1) are immune from Charter review under s. 29 of the Charter. I think this is clear. What is less clear is whether s. 29 of the Charter was required in order to achieve that result. In my view, it was not. I believe it was put there simply to emphasize that the special treatment guaranteed by the constitution to denominational, separate or dissentient schools, even if it sits uncomfortably with the concept of equality embodied in the Charter because not available to other schools, is nevertheless not impaired by the Charter. It was never intended, in my opinion, that the Charter could be used to invalidate other provisions of the Constitution, particularly a provision such as s. 93 which represented a fundamental part of the Confederation compromise. Section 29, in my view, is present in the Charter only for greater certainty, at least in so far as the Province of Ontario is concerned.

In a subsequent case, Adler v. Ontario, [1996] 3 S.C.R. 609, the Supreme Court re-affirmed the Reference re Bill 30 decision, and held that because the separate school funding is specifically provided for in the Constitution, it is not discriminatory for provinces to deny funding to other religious-based schools.

However, this principle does not make separate schools completely immune from the Charter - only to the extent necessary to carry out their constitutionally protected mandate for religious education. They are still public bodies, and thus subject to the Charter for other issues. You will remember the Mark Hall case - the gay student at a separate school who wanted to take his boyfriend to the prom about 4 years ago. The trial court held that the separate school could not discriminate against the student based on his sexual orientation, since that would be contrary to the Charter.

[Northern_Piper]

Interesting article in the news today, illustrating that far from barring prayer in schools, in Canada school authorities may have to accomodate individuals who wish to pray. The engineering school at McGill University, a public university, has been ordered to provide a space where Muslim students can pray: Find prayer space, school told.

[GingerOfTheNorth]

@John Mace

In a recent GD thread, San Stone posted that you get to designate where your taxes go, either to secular schools or relilgious schools. If this is true, then I would assume school prayer is allowed in the religious schools, which do receive tax payer support. So, one could say that school-sponsored prayer is allowed in publicly funded schools, but the different tax/funding structure makes the question somewhat different than in the US. Also, note that **Sam **lives in Alberta, and things may be different in other Provinces.

Any Canadians want to comment on that?

My parents’ taxes were designated to the Calgary Catholic School Board, as I attended a Catholic high school. We did not have a daily prayer. There was Mass once a week which you were free to attend or not attend as you saw fit. There was a mass as part of our graduation ceremonies, again attendance was at your discretion. Religion as a 3 credit class (half-semester, 40 minutes-1 hour) was required in Grade 10.

[Cat_Whisperer]

@bob_loblaw

<snip>yes, it is true that the catholic board allows non-catholics into their schools; primarily by teaching “religion” classes that indirectly tell non-catholics that they are going to hell for not blowing the pope.

My husband who went to Catholic school in Ontario has indicated that this would be in contravention of Vatican II. According to Vatican II, heathens used to go to limbo, but since limbo was eliminated, heathens go to heaven now.

the continuing survival of catholic schools in ontario, and in other canadian provinces, is a blight on the record of human rights we claim to uphold in this country. and also the major failing in the patriation of our constition & of the charter of rights and freedoms.

I don’t really know what you mean by this.