I don’t recommend lying to anyone but evil is more about the intent of the heart than the actual act. Lying to save someone’s life or to prevent a person from harming others or themselves, is not the same as lying for personal gain. I don’t see putting a child milestor in jail as an evil act. We don’t restrict people’s choices as much as we decide consequences for certain acts. A child molestor or any criminal may not be able to help themselves in the act but they almost always know that it has potentially bad consequences and choose it anyway.
If a known pedophile comes up to me and asks “Where’s little Katie?” I’m not going to answer his question just to avoid evil and make sure he has his full range of choices. To do so would be monumentally stupid and in this case aiding evil.
Are you saying that people should be able to choose anything they want at any time and all else is evil?
I agree, although I think with awareness and practice we can be truthful almost all the time. As touched on in the other thread, honesty doesn’t always require a direct answer. There’s also the difference between brutal honesty and diplomacy.
“Honey, do these slacks make my ass look fat?”
" No darling, it’s all the fat that does that, not the slacks"
{that would be brutally honest and stupid}
“I’m not sure I’m a good judge darling. I love your ass. It’s what you think that matters” still honest and diplomatic.
or a more directly honest…
“Ohhh No, I’m not answering that loaded question.”
Of course we don’t always have a chance to plan an answer, but in general I think honesty is the better choice if tempered with some wisdom.
Either way we can’t predict a positive outcome with the truth or a lie. Often a lie is just avoiding the issue or an uncomfortable situation. In those cases I think we are also avoiding personal growth. The challange is how to keep our integrity intact and still face difficult situations.
I’ve met a few people who seem to love it. Personaly I think they’re messed up.
It is indeed a balancing act. I think certain lies have become far to acceptable in the “everybody does it” justification. I’ve worked in retail for years and it still surprises me how people will lie to try and save 5 or 10 dollars. Even in the extreme scenario you mention I think there is a way to remain honest without betraying someone. In the heat of the moment a lie might seem more expedient and I wouldn’t feel to guilty about it.
One, you need to stop using the imperative; I don’t need to do anything you say. Two, I completely agree with you. The world is complex, and sometimes you are going to find yourself in a situation where you end up lying. But instead of falling back on a shallow sense of moral superiority one ought to admit that the lie was evil, and that on occasion one makes evil choices.
Absolutely, you are weak, and so you make evil choices. Everyone does. But you’d be stronger if you didn’t make those choices. Jesus, Ghandi, and Martin Luther King Jr. weren’t just pulling some kind of parlor trick. There is a reason why martyrdom is so effective.
No matter how evil Nazis are, that doesn’t make your evil actions morally justified. Why do you keep hiding behind scapegoats like the Nazis to defend yourself? My point is that morality isn’t an equation. There is plenty of room for everyone to be evil. Yes, saving Jewish people is good, and in your iniquity you may fashion some sort of calculus of evil whereby for every Jewish person you save, you get to kill a Nazi for free, but I’m saying that no matter how many Jewish people you save, that doesn’t justify the sins you perpetrate on Nazis. Look deeper. Your methods are compromises at best. As soon as you declare that you have the moral high ground, that you are good, and the Nazis are evil, you’ve stopped paying attention to what really matters, which is trying to do the best you can for everyone, including the Nazis.
The hell you don’t. Karl Rove is making choices for you every day whether you like it or not.
If I point out the only way to accomplish a goal, and you actually want to accomplish the goal, then yes you do. If I tell you that you need to breath to stay alive, your resentment of my order won’t reduce your need for oxygen.
Lies are neither evil nor good; they’re just lies. The “shallow sense of moral superiority” is feeling good about not lying, while your oh-so-virtuous honesty leaves a mess ( or worse ) behind you. What matters are consequences, not following some rule so you can boost your ego.
I don’t agree that lying is evil in itself, nor would I necessarily be “stronger”; I could instead just be a dead failure.
For that matter, I almost never lie, since I’m very, very bad at it. This has caused me no end of trouble; my life would probably be much better.
Sometimes; sometimes it just fails, nor are your examples all that good. Jesus was either a fool, mentally ill, a con man or a monster who created what I consider history’s greatest single evil, the Christian religion. Ghandi’s martyrdom was useless; he certainly didn’t want to split India into two warring states. MLK Jr succeeded in large part because of the stupidity of his opponents ( their brutality made him look good ), and because white America was scared of people like Malcolm X. That’s why nonviolent protests don’t work as well any more; the powerful have figured out the easy way to deal with them; ignore them. Ignore the protesters enough, and some will use violence; then you can crack down on them, and blame the protestors for it and make it stick.
Besides, how was his MLK jr’s necessary for his cause ?
I’m not trying to “defend myself” ( from what ? ), I’m simply pointing out the fundamental silliness of the idea that honesty is always good.
Call me weird, call me freakish . . . but I really don’t want to do good for Nazis. Just a quirk of mine.
That doesn’t make him my “leader”; and since I don’t believe a word he ( or anyone in the Republican leadership ) says, that make his lies rather ineffective on me. Persuasion is useless if you refuse to listen.
Please, I don’t need any advice about “the only way to accomplish a goal.” I try to avoid thinking in those terms.
For whos benefit are you writing this? You think I need education about when to breath?
You say “what matters are consequences.” Isn’t that just a rule that allows you a shallow sense of moral superiority? When I say, “Lying is evil,” that isn’t the end of the book. I have a lot of supporting beliefs about the nature of lying and evil, just as you have a lot of beliefs about consequences. Please, be respectful. You have your morality, I have mine. We can argue it without calling the other’s shallow.
You seem to have a habit of just writing a lot of people off. You label them and their ideas evil, and then you think you don’t need to worry about them any more. They’re just Christians, they’re just Nazis. Screw’em. Sounds alot to me like when people say, “They’re just Jews,” or “They’re just black people.” Tell me, would it be good if all the Christians were replaced with people with your beliefs? How far are you willing to go to pursue that goal? I’m just asking…
Well I’m not laughing.
At least we have something in common, but you might be surprised at how much information you get from the Republican leadership indirectly. They control the vertical and the horizontal.
