Is Shodan more retarded lately, or has he maintained a consistent level of retardation all along?

[Bricker]

@xenophon41

See, it’s responses like this that cause much of the heartache between you, Bricker, and many liberal interlocutors.

I believe absolutely that you believe this charge to be true; you believe that in actual fact liberal posters in this thread have denied that liberals ever misbehave and that the SDMB is left leaning by American standards.

The two problems this presents for you (in my view) are that a) such a belief is objectively in error, and b) it is only my opinion that you sincerely believe this, but an equally valid opinion would be that you typed a bald face lie in order to further promote the general idea that conservatives are persecuted in this venue.

And yet:

@MaxTheVool

Furthermore, it’s also unquestionably the case that the SDMB as a whole is left-leaning, so that any right-wing opinion posted is going to be met with a LOT of disagreement, of various tones, levels of intellect and levels of politeness.

So to avoid this being colored by my participation, why don’t you and MaxTheVool discuss the proposition that the SDMB is left-leaning by American standards. He says its unquestionably true. You say it’s objectively not true, and that my saying it is cause for someone to infer I’m typing a bald-faced lie.

Assuming Max is insulated from the spectre of bald-faced lying, it seems he is much the better person to discuss the objective truth. I can’t, obviously, lest the reader conclude I’m lying to further promote the general idea that conservatives are persecuted in this venue. But he can, yes?

[VinylTurnip]

@Shodan

The experiment would be to start a sock account posting exactly as I do, same level of snark, but arguing for liberal positions and pointing out conservative hypocrisy. There would be no Pit threads for my sock. It’s not the snark to which the Usual Suspects object; it’s the politics.

MaxTheVool’s experiment would be useful in answering the question “would I still be criticized if I weren’t such an asshole?” Yours would be useful in addressing the question “if I were a liberal, could I get away with being this much of an asshole?”

Both worthy questions, I suppose. Which one you’d choose depends heavily on what it is you’re trying to accomplish.

[Gyrate]

@Bricker

But is it really true that the price of admission is being called evil, racist, women-hating, or an Uncle Tom (Tomas, more accurately for me)? I’ve been called all those things here.

“The plural of anecdote is not data,” as the man say. We’ve all been called names here - I’ve been called a traitor, a terrorist-enabler, a Communist, evil, stupid, a liar, part of a hive-mind and an assortment of other things from right-wing posters here, and that’s not getting into the entire page worth of creative epithets from Starving Artist alone. What should I conclude from that?

The SDMB is a lot better than the vast majority of internet messageboards but abuse from those who disagree with you is still unavoidable. And that is the price of admission.

[Fotheringay-Phipps]

@Bricker

So to avoid this being colored by my participation, why don’t you and MaxTheVool discuss the proposition that the SDMB is left-leaning by American standards. He says its unquestionably true. You say it’s objectively not true, and that my saying it is cause for someone to infer I’m typing a bald-faced lie.

Assuming Max is insulated from the spectre of bald-faced lying, it seems he is much the better person to discuss the objective truth. I can’t, obviously, lest the reader conclude I’m lying to further promote the general idea that conservatives are persecuted in this venue. But he can, yes?

I initially raised an eyebrow as well, but I believe Xeno is saying that you’ve claimed that you believe that “liberals deny that the SDMB is left leaning”, and this is what he (Xeno) believes to be incorrect (IOW, he thinks liberals don’t deny this). Not that you’re incorrect for claiming that the SDMB leans left.

[xenophon41]

@Bricker

So to avoid this being colored by my participation, why don’t you and MaxTheVool discuss the proposition that the SDMB is left-leaning by American standards. He says its unquestionably true. You say it’s objectively not true, and that my saying it is cause for someone to infer I’m typing a bald-faced lie.

You’ve missed the point and misrepresented my argument. Sincerely, I’m sure.

I agree with MaxTheVool that the SDMB is left leaning by American standards. What I don’t agree with is Bricker’s assertion that in this thread that proposition has been denied -either explicitly or implicitly- by liberal posters. That is what is objectively untrue.

ETA: Your response to my point kind of supports my point, I think.

[Shodan]

@VinylTurnip

MaxTheVool’s experiment would be useful in answering the question “would I still be criticized if I weren’t such an asshole?” Yours would be useful in addressing the question “if I were a liberal, could I get away with being this much of an asshole?”

The answer to both questions is Yes, IMO. Bricker and Sam Stone and Mr. Moto are not assholes, and they get criticized. And there are any number of liberal assholes who get away with it, by and large.

Regards,
Shodan

[Shodan]

@xenophon41

I agree with MaxTheVool that the SDMB is left leaning by American standards. What I don’t agree with is Bricker’s assertion that in this thread that proposition has been denied -either explicitly or implicitly- by liberal posters.

Read post #706.

Regards,
Shodan

[Hentor_the_Barbarian]

@Shodan

The answer to both questions is Yes, IMO. Bricker and Sam Stone and Mr. Moto are not assholes, and they get criticized. And there are any number of liberal assholes who get away with it, by and large.

Regards,
Shodan

One need not be an asshole to say asshole things. Moto very often offers nothing more than the worst tu quoque arguments you’ve ever seen. I’ve said this before, but he once responded to the issue of Dick Cheney shooting someone in the face by observing that some Adlai Stevenson accidentally killed someone while messing around with a loaded rifle. When he was 12 years old.

That’s not reasonable argument. That is mindless, reflexive, illogical partisan defense, and deserves nothing but mockery and scorn.

[Fotheringay-Phipps]

@xenophon41

ETA: Your response to my point kind of supports my point, I think.

I disagree. Your sentence was poorly written, and I had to reread it carefully to figure out what you meant.

[xenophon41]

@Shodan

Read post #706.

In which ElvisL1ves* disagrees with your claim that you’re responded to with hostility as (your words) a “right leaning poster” instead of (Elvis’ words) a “reality impaired” poster.

The statement you want to examine is: “The board isn’t really, as is often said, left-leaning, it’s factuality-leaning.” This is rhetorical support for Elvis’ long running theme that conservative ideology is counterfactual and the reason the 'Dope leans left is because the 'Dope leans toward verifiable facts. This is phrased as to imply the board doesn’t lean left, but the specific content of the statement is an explanation for the leftward lean, and not a denial of it.

*a liberal poster who’s frequently rebuked by other liberal posters - I think ElvisL1ves will agree with that assessment.

[xenophon41]

@Fotheringay-Phipps

I disagree. Your sentence was poorly written, and I had to reread it carefully to figure out what you meant.

I’ll accept the criticism of my writing style (you’re not the first pair to find it somewhat opaque), but I’ll point out that fuzzy writing is a fairly common sin here, particularly in acrimonious discussions. Bricker was quick to interpret my meaning in a way which supports his impression, rather than taking the time that you took to parse the language more carefully.

Bricker is quick to correctly identify confirmation bias in others; can he perceive the beam in his own eye?

[Fotheringay-Phipps]

OK.

FWIW, I think you yourself misunderstood Bricker, and that the second proposition that he says was being denied in this thread is not that the SDMB leans left but that (as a result) “any right-wing opinion posted is going to be met with a LOT of disagreement, of various tones, levels of intellect and levels of politeness”.

[Shodan]

What I don’t agree with is Bricker’s assertion that in this thread that proposition has been denied -either explicitly or implicitly- by liberal posters. That is what is objectively untrue.

:shrugs:

You say that no one ever denies that the SDMB is left-leaning. In the very same thread, on the very same page, there is an instance of someone saying exactly that.

If you were a conservative, you would get called a liar. But you’re not, so you get away with it.

Regards,
Shodan

[BigT]

@Shodan

Nope, never said this.

However, on the SDMB “liberal being an asshole” = “Good one!” “You really showed him!”

“Conservative being an asshole” = “NO FAIR!” “TROLLTROLLTROLL!” Read the thread.

Regards,
Shodan

Yeah, and what do you expect when you, as a conservative, continue to post politically at a liberal board, and not with some decent motive such as that of Bricker or Sam Stone, but clearly with intent to annoy rather than enter into discussion, as evidenced by the style of post?

I’m pretty liberal, but I post things that people often disagree with, and I get skewered, too, and often in a manner that bugs some people. And it’s not like my political beliefs are that far out there–I just take the bleeding heart liberal thing a bit further than is typical here.

I also do my best to contribute to a ton of other threads that have nothing to do with my pet peeves, partly in response to a pit thread. Have you changed your posting habits due to one of the 18 pit threads about you? Have you even tried to be better liked?

[pseudotriton_ruber_ruber]

@Fotheringay-Phipps

“any right-wing opinion posted is going to be met with a LOT of disagreement, of various tones, levels of intellect and levels of politeness”.

As is any opinion around here. So, what do you propose? That we create a special no-speech zone around here so that the most virulent rightwing whackjob can feel safe?

[Shodan]

@BigT

Yeah, and what do you expect when you, as a conservative, continue to post politically at a liberal board, and not with some decent motive such as that of Bricker or Sam Stone, but clearly with intent to annoy rather than enter into discussion, as evidenced by the style of post?

You are missing two points already made. [ul][li]First, your allegation that I post with intent to annoy instead of discussion is false. I post substance, and I post snark. There are a number of other liberal posters who do the same. I get attacked and Pitted; they don’t (to anything like the same degree). Do the math.[/li][li]Sam Stone is someone you mention who is conservative, and posts in good faith and with a desire to enter into discussion. He gets attacked and Pitted and nitpicked and lied about to the point that he no longer participates in the discussions here. [/ul]So, we agree that it matters little if one attempts serious discussion, or mixes snark and serious discussion. If you are conservative, the Usual Suspects attack and try to drive you away. [/li]
Funny how that works.

I also do my best to contribute to a ton of other threads that have nothing to do with my pet peeves, partly in response to a pit thread.

As do I. People tend to ignore that, once they have decided what to think.

Have you even tried to be better liked?

That’s the point mentioned earlier. There are a good many people here who believe that conservatives are inherently evil people. There’s no point in trying to be better liked by those. So I don’t bother.

Regards,
Shodan

[elucidator]

@Bricker

…in which I opined that the majoroty of members found the board via interest in Cecil’s column, which was published in “alternative” newspapers and thus had a readership that skewed strongly left.

IIRC, that was Scylla. And its balderdash, sir, tommyrot. Been there, done that, sold the Berkeley Barb on Telegraph Avenue. That would be '67, '68, before the underground newspapers found the hidden goldmine of “personal” ads. Once the scent of money was in the air, the underground paper was doomed. Now, the alternative press is restaurant reviews for people who can afford restaraunts, the latest on that saucy merlot from Australia. Yuppie news for yuppie scum. That was a looong time ago.

The original Cecilians were, and largely remain, fact geeks. You see them at the book store, poring over the remainder table. They pretend they are mulling over that book of essays comparing Wittgenstien’s alcohol capacity to Schlegel: was he just as shloshed, or less so?

But they are really focused on trash, 1001 Little Known and Utterly Insignificant Facts. They can’t help it. OK, OK, we can’t help it! We are the people who cannot play Trivial Pursuit, we always win, we always gloat, and everybody hates us. We are intellectual pack-rats, scurrying about for shiny bits of useless truth. We talk ourselves into buying that book, maybe as a joke gift for Uncle Fred, but we know it will end up in our bathrooms until we have absorbed every bit of trivia in it. We also know that we already know half the stuff in there, the products of life long addiction.

We are not the damned, we are the darned, and it is bad enough. I was a Cecilian when the internet was the information super-highway (..hmmm, adjust handshake and CRC to neutral, reset baud rate, and I can get into the local library…) I bought the first one and began pestering bookstore employees for another fix. When? When, goddamit, when?!!

If anything, I was leftier then than now, but that’s only because of progress creep, the notions I had that were radical are now liberal. But the fact geek is a junkie, not an idealogue, if the only place to get my Cecil hit was the WSJ, I would have hung around the lobbies of banks, pretending I had some business there. Eugene V. Debs forgive me, I would have bought the stinking rag, had I no other choice.

I am a fact geek. A Cecilian. An intellectual rag-picker. One day I wondered, perhaps, does this Cecil guy have an online location? Cue the harps and the angelic chorus, hallelujah! Mom, I’m home, these are my people!

The personality defect we are afflicted with has fuck-all to do with politics.

[pseudotriton_ruber_ruber]

@Shodan

There are a good many people here who believe that conservatives are inherently evil people. There’s no point in trying to be better liked by those. So I don’t bother.

You have been trying to annoy everyone you identify as one of “those” people, which is pretty much anyone to the left of you (which is pretty much everyone here) for as long as I’ve been here, arguing in bad faith, arguing for victory rather than learning, nitpicking, tu-quoquing, commiting any and every form of abuse your twisted mind can devise. So if you don’t bother trying to show your adversaries where they’ve gone wrong, and are intent merely on twitting and frustrating them, why in the world would you complain that you’re treated less than fairly here on some occasions?

[MsWhatsit]

If it would help at all, I will gladly report that I find many of elucidator’s posts, particularly ones like #737 there, to be insanely irritating. Are you smoking something, or getting paid by the word, or what?

As far as liking/not liking Shodan, I like him just fine in many non-political threads and usually find him witty and entertaining. I just wish he would stop being such a douchebag in the politics threads. I have seen enough “if X were Y then liberals would be stupid” strawmen from him for a decade of Guy Fawkes days.

[Shodan]

@pseudotriton_ruber_ruber

So if you don’t bother trying to show your adversaries where they’ve gone wrong, and are intent merely on twitting and frustrating them, why in the world would you complain that you’re treated less than fairly here on some occasions?

I do show where my adversaries are wrong.

I don’t with you, because you are a lying troll - I am talking about reasonable posters.

Regards,
Shodan