Is our society biased against minorities, or just against the poor? A rich black man, like Jesse Jackson or Michael Jordan, would receive the same preferential treatment a rich white man, like Bill Gates or Steve Jobs, would as long as they tipped well. However, the working poor of Kentucky and Virginia, mostly white miners struggling in a country that is losing its mines, get shat on often simply because they don’t even have enough to eat at McDonald’s regularly. Perhaps the reason that prisons are mostly black is because blacks are committing the crimes. Look for simple reasons and you’ll see that faulty complex ones are not needed. As for their portrayal in films, studios make what sells. In a market 90% white, those kind of films sell.
But Derleth if that’s true, the kicker would be and the question that begs itself is, “Why are more blacks committing the crimes?”.
I’m going to eat now.
I see this and I don’t know what to think.
It sounds to me like you are saying "Well, hell we freed them one hundred and thirty five years ago; why aren’t they fixed yet.
But it wasn’t one hundred-thirty five years ago, Mr. Z! It was about twenty, thirty years ago. Remember blacks were a bit less than human in the sixties? Remember the Whites Only and Nigger/Negro/Colored Only accomadations. Do we actually have to go through Jim Crow all over again. That is nearly four hundred years of slow psycological torture!
My parents lived through that time, Mr. Z! It’s going to take a while for those effects to pass!
And it seems pretty close that you are blaming the building manager for not fixing a building bombed yesterday and not looking for the terrorists.
It wasn’t black culture that was destroyed in the American Civil War. That culture was already warped and reshaped into a horrendous monstrosity. It was white southern slave-holding culture that was destroyed one hundred-thirty five years ago. And even in that long of a time, some haven’t recovered from it yet.
However as I have said, “black culture” has be shaped by those forces at least up to the seventies. Whether or not it is still being shaped by those forces is what we are debating here today, I guess.
The premise: Society prejudges people based on the color of their skin. Those who are black are judged to be inferior, therefore, it is more difficult (if not impossible) for them to succeed.
The counter: If having black skin and the reaction thereof by whites is the sole reason behind the failure of blacks, then why do certain immigrant blacks succeed where US blacks fail?
Leftist answer: Because we whites destroyed US black’s culture, and pride. We screwed their society.
to the OP: is current US society racist?
Left answer: yes, because blacks are mostly poor, that proves racism exists.
Mr.Z: Whatever the reason that US blacks have a crappy society, be it slavery, latent African culture or genetics, the fact that blacks from other countries are so successful proves that skin color is not the factor. It is not racism in society that keeps US blacks down. It is the culture, or lack thereof in US blacks that keeps them down.
My point is that the success of non-US black proves that skin color is NOT the factor. THe non_US blacks are like a control group. All things are equal except for thier cultural values. And one cultural value rocks, while one rots. My Premise is that US blacks have an inferior culture.
Now before you paint a swatika on me, I am willing to admit that this might be the fault of whites. But to the OP, it does not prove that society is racist. To the contrary; US black culture just needs work.
Now you can blame that on whites, or GOd, or the Invisible Pink Unicorn, but can you blame “Society”?
"Is our society biased against minorities, or just against the poor? A rich black man, like Jesse Jackson or Michael Jordan, would receive the same preferential treatment a rich white man, like Bill Gates or Steve Jobs, would as long as they tipped well. …/…
Perhaps the reason that prisons are mostly black is because blacks are committing the crimes." Derleth
Sorry, Derleth, Jesse Jackson is not rich. OJ Simpson is [not as before] and it is because of his ability to pay millions for a wonderful murder defense team that he was able to walk free. I really love the whole OJ Simpson murder trial business because it proves a point in the improvement of race relations in the US. Money can buy you freedom. Gotta hand it to his team - they did a wonderful job.
Second point in reference to this OP: Perhaps the real reason why prisons are mostly [filled with] Blacks is that the justice system is implemented, administered by people who are prone to act on their personal beliefs, IOW justice is not blind. Racial profiling and death penalty inmates are clear examples that justice is not blind. Take a look at the recent threads concerning the death penalty sentencing and you should see clearly that Blacks get the short end of the stick. Another example: Recent incidences in NYC where NYPD cops tortured or killed several men because of their color.
In theory our judicial system is hands and heads above other systems, unfortunately it still reeks of racism, prejudice, human incompetency and a preferential treatment to those who can afford to buy their “justice”. So, if you are poor, you’re screwed and if you are Black you’re screwed, but you can save your ass if you can buy your way out.
Again, my point is that there has been progress, but there is still much to struggle against.
Yeah, it’s legal in SC, now. The State Constitution, which had previously contained a ban on interracial marriages was amended a few years ago.
I think that you are totally missing Mr. Zambezi’s point. Suppose you see person A shoot person B. You run off to find the the cops, and when you and the cops come back, you find person C standing over person B’s body. The cops arrest person C, even though he says he was trying to help person B. Now, you know that person B was alive you left, but later died. Which is more reasonable assumption:
- Person B died from person A’s bullet, or
- Person B died because of something person C did?
He should correct me if I am misunderstanding, but I think that Mr.Zambezi’s point was that #1 is a much more rational conclusion.
[QUOTE]
**
yup, missing my point. I am saying that they were freed 135 years ago and can;t fix their own problems. More in line with the OP, I am saying, the fact thet they ain’t fixed themselves is not proof of societal racism. Rather, it is proof that they aint fixed themselves.
Now, do you think that it is up to the white man to fix everything for those poor helpless blacks, or are you of the mind that they can rise all by themselves?
Are they helpless, or strong?
I must be because I can’t see how your scenario even remotely resemble’s Mr. Z’s post.
I’ll try to explain better what I saw. If I putting words in his mouth, he’ll let me know.
Supposition #1: Racism within general society structures ended with the American War.
Incorrect! If I remember my American History correctly, there was a nice long period of time where the tools of society, could be and were used to separate, intimidate, and demoralize minorities. You had Jim Crow laws, anti-miscegenation laws, the poll tax, the grandfather clause, more or less effectively shutting black folks out of general society. They could, and have succeeded within their niche, but lest they got to uppity, there was a lynch mob handy.
For example, it wasn’t until 1967, thirty-three years ago, that the Supreme Court ruled on the case Loving v. Virginia, which basically told Virginia and the other states they can’t tell me whom folks can love. As I see you again used the magic 135, just because the war ended then, doesn’t mean all the problems were solved in 1865. Far from it.
Supposition #2: All events --past, present–occur, and all people live in a vacuum. History has no, or little bearing on what happens today. What has occurred in the past has no bearing on the here and now.
If you believe this to be true, I ask you, why aren’t there more female CEO in the world? Why don’t women on average make as much as men?
I’m sure you could give me a laundry list of excuses such as women haven’t been players in the desired field (e.g., medicine, technical sciences). But Mr. Z we liberated the woman in the 1920s-1940s, surely they would have pulled themselves by their bootstraps by now. It must be their culture. No, some men couldn’t possibly be actively trying to thwart their efforts. It is simply the women being lazy and blaming it all on the innocent hapless male. They have equality now, they’ve just squandered it.
I ask you Mr. Z, has it been black people who have been lynching themselves through the 1860s-1960s? Have they been fighting in Congress and in the state governorships saying “Segregation today, segregation tomorrow, segregation forever!”? Have black people been joining the KKK to terrorize themselves oh so receently ago? If you can actually can say yes to the above, then I have no problem saying that black people can solve every slight of racism.
But no that is not true. And blacks can’t magically and instantaneously make everyone perfectly tolerant. They can’t go on a countrywide tour and try to individually teach every single person that, despite what the CCC says, the black population consists of more than a fat woman with ten kids living on welfare. Black people can’t identify and stop every racist cop who shoots first, shoots several dozen more times, and then ask questions later. Black people can’t fix a culture that is still be broken by white people.
But I think I’ll say this one more time. Racism as a big part of society did NOT go away in 1865. And every reiteration of the Civil War’s end in 1865 can’t change it. Why must I repeat this over and over? Because one hundred-thirty years is a much different animal than thirty years. I don’t know how to explain this any better, but if I break my get into a car accident and break my legs today. Even though I’m in great physical shape, it would be insane of me to think that I could be able to walk out of the hospital tomorrow. Blacks are strong, but they aren’t omnipotent.
[quoe
I’ll try to explain better what I saw. If I putting words in his mouth, he’ll let me know.
[/quote]
Darn tootin’!
Supposition #1: Racism within general society structures ended with the American War.
Incorrect! If I remember my American History correctly, there was a nice long period of time where the tools of society, could be and were used to separate, intimidate, and demoralize minorities.
[/quote]
I agree with this statement wholeheartedly.
[quote]
For example, it wasn’t until 1967, thirty-three years ago, that the Supreme Court ruled on the case Loving v. Virginia, which basically told Virginia and the other states they can’t tell me whom folks can love. As I see you again used the magic 135, just because the war ended then, doesn’t mean all the problems were solved in 1865. Far from it.
[quote]
I used 135 years because it marks a starting point. It is not too far off the time that the coolies came to California where they too suffered the same racism.
OK, there you are putting words in my mouth. THe reason that women aren’t represented equally at the CEO level is because it takes about 30 years to get there. In fields where CEOs are young, you will see a lot of female CEOs. What you see now is a pretty equal representation of women at the Director level. IN ten years I see,and welcome, woman ceos in 50% of the open positions. Part of the problem is that women, like it or not, give birth. Many women drop out or scale back their careers for their children. A fact that I find admirable.
they have. Dont put women down. IF you look at current college enrollment; women make up about 50% of the student body. However, they choose individually to go into fields such as teaching, writing and social work, which do not lend themselves to being a CEO.
No, women are <gasp> different from men. see my comment above.
now you are just using inflammatory rhetorical devices to pull the heart strings. I am talking about now. I have made clear my position that non-US blacks and other visually identifiable ethnics can and do succeed here despite the subjugation of their people in their home countries. I am not blaming US blacks for bringing the things you mentionupon themselves. I am saying that they have many opportunities now, but simply do not take them because of their society, not society in general.
OK, so if you look at the past 30 years and the great gains that asians, indonesians, chinese, koreans, cubans and the lot, why haven’t blacks pulled themselves up? And if it is society, tell me, PLEASE!, in what ways is our society racist?
Sorry, Mr Zambezi, your last posting was impossible to read, impossible to understand, impossible to follow some kinda logic.
I will agree on one point that seems to appear thru your postings: yes, there are people who do not seize opportunities to educate themselves ergo improve their position. It continues to amaze me that, in this day and age when information at large and at home is abundant and free, some folks never take the opportunity to expand their knowledge base. They ignore history. They ignore current events. They ignore data. They ignore the various themes, theses, theories of experts. They ignore developing their own thorough understanding of a particular current event or issue based on analysis. Yeah, there are also folks who just don’t want to analyse something, but would rather spout off old ideas of yesteryear.
My sense from reading this thread is that folks believe that racism still exists in our society albeit many folks believe that this racism is random and only based on individual behavior. There are those of us who believe that blatant racism is harder and harder to find; insidious institutional racism is harder to acknowledge because, well, it’s not in-your-face unless you are the individual effected by it [unbalanced sentencing practices, racial profiling, employment practices]. Understanding insidious institutional racism takes a bit of “walking in my shoes” thinking. Are you willing to take the plunge?
Hey Mr.Zambezi, could you please put other’s quotes in bold. I had a really fricken hard time reading your last post.
You posted this
**
I would say that to an extent they do not succeed because of their society. But, that society does not exist in a vacum. That society is part and parcel of our larger society. You could accurately call it a society of failure. But why is that way?
**
Again, as I stated earlier, those gains come from mostly middle class families. When poorer families immigrate, you see much less success. A good example is Gautamalens, very poor here in CA, why? Becuase most of the immigrants were poor.
So in what ways is our society racist?
Blacks, about 12% of general population, comprised
51% of murder victims. Almost 1 in 10 of black
murder victims were age 18 to 21.
When you are more likely to be killed or robbed or shot it’s hard to focus on schoolwork or succeeding.
A 1998 report by the Death Penalty Information Center summarizes the findings of several scholars which illustrate this point. In 96% of the studies examining the relationship between race and the death penalty there was a pattern of race-of-victim or race-of-defendant discrimination, or both.
The report also reveals a consistent trend indicating race-of-victim discrimination. For example, in Florida, in comparable cases, “a defendant’s odds of receiving a death sentence are 4.8 times higher if the victim was white than if the victim was black. In Illinois the multiplier is 4, in Oklahoma it is 4.3, in North Carolina, 4.4, and in Mississippi, it is 5.5.”
The state of Kentucky presents a particularly outrageous example of race-of-victim discrimination: despite the fact that 1,000 African Americans have been murdered there since the 1975 reinstitution of the death penalty in that state, as of spring 1999, all of the state’s 39 death row inmates were sentenced for murdering a white victim; none were there for murdering an African American.
Several studies show the effects of outright racial discrimination. One recent example, a 1998 University of Iowa study of sentencing in Philadelphia, showed that the odds of receiving a death sentence are nearly 3.9 times greater if the defendant is African American.
African Americans and Latinos constitute nearly 90% sentenced to state prison for drug possession. Yet most drug users are white.
2.3 times as many whites use crack/cocaine than blacks. Yet 90% of all people in prison for possesion are black.
I’ll have some more facts and statistics later. I’ll touch upon education and housing then. While I know that justice in itself doesn’t mean we live in a racist society, combined with everything else I feel it does.
Oh, hilarious.
Neither race nor racism is solely about skin color. If it were, then what could account for the “one-drop” rule? What could explain why a friend of mine in high school was considered “black” by herself and others despite having skin lighter than that of many “white” people? Why aren’t the many Indians, Sri Lankans, Pakistanis, etc., with skin as dark as that of the average African-American considered “black”?
In Malcolm X’s autobiography (which I recommend to anyone interested in race relations, regardless of how they feel about Malcolm’s politics or methods) he discusses at some length the difference between the way African-Americans and Africans are treated by white Americans. He recounts the story of an African diplomat who visited America and was treated respectfully by white people when dressed in the traditional costume of his country but not when he dressed in a suit and was indistinguishable from any African-American. Malcolm also says that while in Africa he met several white Americans on vacation who had no trouble treated black Africans as equals but freely admitted that they could not do the same with black Americans. I don’t doubt that any of this is true, since I have seen the same differences in the way whites treat the African-American students and the black international students from Africa and the West Indies at my school (my roomate my first year in college was Jamaican).
It’s been my personal experience that I am treated nicer, when I am with my husband, if I speak French…don’t ask me why. There is also the other side of things; people being overly friendly to prove that they aren’t racist or upset to see people practicing integration in a very personal manner. We get a lot of free drinks and bottles of wine while dining out; in Atlanta that is, but not once in Florida where we live. I think that it is an American version of “Love Me, Love South Africa” which we use to get all the time while visiting there. All the white folks in South Africa had to see was my husband’s diplomatic passport [in the early 90s this meant that he spontaneously, mysteriously and officially became White] and his American Express card…“Love Me, Love South Africa; I love YOUR dollars”. My brother and his family had the same sort of experience; his wife, from one of the Carolinas, gave me those Lukeme beads which trapped my husband… I don’t mind this sort of activity… it doesn’t hurt.
On the other hand, there is: being sitted in a restaurant and then totally ignored by the waitress as she serves others who arrived after you; having people get up from their seat in the movie theater to move away from you; sales people ignoring you; dirty looks from complete strangers [mostly women], newly made acquaintances suddenly become unavailable, being told your kids are beautifuly inspite of the fact they are mongrols [yeah, believe it or not from a highly educated PhD idiot]. I’m a bit surprised at myself for talking about this mild stuff… there’s a bunch of things that have happened that are job related – I’d have to move to the hellfire and brimestone pit for those stories.
[QUOTE]
**Originally posted by oldscratch:
Hey Mr.Zambezi, could you please put other’s quotes in bold. I had a really fricken hard time reading your last post.*well [i}I know what I am saying. Why don’t you? Jeez, I thought you were all mind readers.
Don’t know. That is what I am trying to determin here. My guess is that it is the same reason that German’s are great engineersa and the Italians make good wine. Culture.
so, are you willing to concede, for argument’s sake, that blacks do more harm to blacks than whites do?
** OK, I am going to lose some credibility here, but…
blacks commit more murders and more crimes. Clarly, the death oenalty does not deter them. Perhaps a stronger message should be sent. BTW, could you please cite your stats?
BTW, statistics show a much, much higher incidence of black on white than white on white crime.
[quote]
**Several studies show the effects of outright racial discrimination. One recent example, a 1998 University of Iowa study of sentencing in Philadelphia, showed that the odds of receiving a death sentence are nearly 3.9 times greater if the defendant is African American.
African Americans and Latinos constitute nearly 90% sentenced to state prison for drug possession. Yet most drug users are white
2.3 times as many whites use crack/cocaine than blacks. Yet 90% of all people in prison for possesion are black…
[quote]
**
Oh, come ON scratch. You are much smarter than this. The fact that more blacks get thrown in the clink is no indication of racism. 1 they could simply do more drugs, which, IMHO they do. Secondly, Users rarely get jail time but dealers do. more whites might, possibly use drugs (which makes sense since we are teh majority) but more blacks deal them.
I’d like to address the some of the statements of Mr. Z.
First allusion by Mr. Z :
blacks commit more murders and more crimes. Clarly, the death oenalty does not deter them. Perhaps a stronger message should be sent. BTW, could you please cite your stats?
Mr. Z according to the Source book for criminal statistics, whites and blacks are committing crimes at similar rates. http://www.albany.edu/sourcebook/1995/pdf/t410.pdf
That conforms to studies, which suggest that the majority of crime can be attributable to men in the 18-35 groups, irregardless of race.
As several studies will point out, the difference in what happens next depends largely on the color of your skin. See here http://www.sentencingproject.org/policy/9070.htm
here http://www.sentencingproject.org/pubs/tsppubs/civilrights.pdf or here: http://www.hrw.org/reports/2000/usa/
Another assertion:
Oh, come ON scratch. You are much smarter than this. The fact that more blacks get thrown in the clink is no indication of racism. 1 they could simply do more drugs, which, IMHO they do. Secondly, Users rarely get jail time but dealers do. more whites might, possibly use drugs (which makes sense since we are teh majority) but more blacks deal them.
Please see this report for numbers regarding drug use: http://www.csdp.org/factbook/druguse.htm
While this covers usage. I’d like to address your assumptions about jail time. Jail time for possession of drugs is largely a function of where they are arrested, the availability of drug courts and who’s pressing the charges (local, state feds). The November coalition runs a rather large web site with plenty of profiles of people doing time for simple possession. Check out http://www.november.org for more details.
I’m wondering though, does the fact that Mr. Z would make these blanket assumptions favor the argument that society is in fact racist. My reasoning for this is simple. Obviously his assumptions about drug use and crime are colored by the media depiction of minorities.
Nope. I lived in a predominently black neighborhood, and now live in a predominently poor hispanic neighborhood. MY statement was based more from personal experience and the fact that more blacks are arrested for drug crimes. Looking at teh stats only one thing can be true: either innocent blacks are being incarcerated, Guilty whites are being set free or blacks are committing more crimes.
I think that if you slice your stats a little differently, you will find that crime, drug use and prison sentences are more a function of income than color.
There is actually another conclusion to be drawn. Police focus their attention on minorities and don’t pick up as many guillty whites. I would like to try and keep personal antecdotes out of this, since they don’t really prove anything, but I can’t resist.
I have a friend, an electrical engineer, who happens to be a black female bodybuilder. She doesn’t look very feminine. She also own a black porshce and lives in a upscale white neighborhood. About 1/10 of the time that she would take that porsche out for drives she would be pulled over for “suspicious behavior”. If she had been a white man she would not have been pulled over that much.
Also Mr Z., I do agree with you that income has more to do with the problems of minorites than race. But, race is a part of it.
Which came first, the chicken or the egg?
I think that race has much, much less to do with it. If you can afford to live in the right neighborhood, you get good schools, low violence and a culture that frowns on the very things that doom people to poverty.
lord knows, If I grew up in teh ghetto, I never would have gone to college. As it was, I never even considered not going to college.