I’m mostly agreeing with you. Although minorities who grew up afluent still experience racism. Society as a whole, conspires to keep minorities in the ghetto. Not as any part of a conspiracy, but through the actions of laws, lack of funding to education, police action.
Mr. Z:
While I lend a little credence to your “income” (not being able to afford good legal representaion, private schools, etc.) argument it doesn’t nearly address the whole story. This year as in every other year for as long as I can remember, some group or another does a study that shows minorities are discriminated against in lending (denied at 30% higher than whites, I don’t remember who did it but that number seems right), insurance (a southern insurance companies has been for years charging blacks higher rates for lower coverage)and other places. Income doesn’t explain these findings.
Just recently, a california bank (not sure if Im allowed to say who)had to be stopped from putting euphemistic slurs on their web sites loan page. Kind of an Internet redlining. Then you also have substandard schools in minority neighborhoods (calif being sued by ACLU for this). All these things can’t be chalked up to income.
As for your arguments about recent black arrivals doing better. I think native blacks might be more prone to aim lower, based on experience and history. Also, new arrivals tend to be better educated. And speaking as a black man who’s done some travelling overseas, Ive always felt better treated by whites in other countries.
Oh yeah and somone mentioned black celebraties being treated as well as whites. Also not true, 20-20 recently did a report on this, A singer from hootie(sp?) and the blowfish(sorry don’t know his name, Im a jazz fan), Danny Glover and Charles Darden (OJ Fame) all were interviwed about recent instances of discrimination. I know it was on their site a couple of months ago.
Poor neighborhoods are not exclusively black. They are pretty much exclusively poor. Being poor areas, they tend to have other problems, one of which is pretty crappy real estate prices. When you are talking about “red-lining” this is what is at play - not racism. LEnders rarely, if ever, know the race of the applicant. What they do know is income a and credit rating.
There is no law against a black person moving anywhere they darn well please. If blacks are not snapping up mansions on the 18th hole, it probably has more to do with means than with racism.
The question here is: are blacks and some other minorities poor because of racism, or is there some other cause.
The fact that a group tends to be poor is not proof of racism. Different groups have cultures of varying success. Jews, despite being killed and discriminated against for millenia, have done pretty well. Ditto Chinese, japanese, Korean, Indian, etc. immigrants. If racism is so good at keeping down non-whites, why does it fail with so many?
Mr Z wrote:Poor neighborhoods are not exclusively black. They are pretty much exclusively poor. Being poor areas, they tend to have other problems, one of which is pretty crappy real estate prices. When you are talking about “red-lining” this is what is at play - not racism. LEnders rarely, if ever, know the race of the applicant. What they do know is income a and credit rating.
What Im talking is lending, not buying up available realestate, though there are issues there as well. In fact I seem to recall a Geraldo epsisode featuring an entire town at odds due to interatial dating.
As for the “lenders rarely…” Not true, besides a scoring system most banks have a policy of discretionary approvals/denials in fact its what banks point to when defending themselves of such charges. That way it’ll be blamed on loan officers not a “pattern”
The fact that a group tends to be poor is not proof of racism. Different groups have cultures of varying success. Jews, despite being killed and discriminated against for millenia, have done pretty well. Ditto Chinese, japanese, Korean, Indian, etc. immigrants. If racism is so good at keeping down non-whites, why does it fail with so many?
A couple of things here. First newly arriving immigrants have a whole support structure in place for helping them integrate themselves into society. Second most of the groups you mention have historically close familial relationships. Family members of multiple generations tend to pool assets for a common good. No such ties exist in the Black community and arguably couldn’t as broken families are a way of life in the black community. And I don’t mean it as a moral issue.
Black families have always been under attack. Think back to Slavery… Vietnam, then progrees to the drug war. Broken families has been a way of life for Blacks since the country’s founding. None of the minorites you mention has withstood such a prolonged attack, at it’s foundation.
Anyone, please answer me this: When is the last time you actually sat face to face with a loan officer for a mortgage or credit card? I think I have twice in my life.
I disagree that immigrants have any inherent advantage. Many have left their families nbehind, or through war have no family left. In addition they do not understand the culture nor do they speak the language. They face many more hurdles than US blacks.
I will agree with you about broken families. If anything, this is the cause of teh failures of the blacks community. But white people are not driving off black fathers, nor are they forcing the young women to procreate. Is is something in black culture. I am told by those with more experience in the matter that black men and woment take pride in getting pregnant.
So why do blacks have a gard time keeping a family together?
Stuffinb: congratulations for your 12.54 posting. Well organized and well documented.
"Looking at teh stats only one thing can be true: either
innocent blacks are being incarcerated, Guilty whites are being set free or blacks are committing more crimes.
I think that if you slice your stats a little differently, you will find that crime, drug use and prison sentences are more a function of income than color." – Mr Zambezi.
I suggest that you read the reports especially sections which deal with equal income. I would also like to hear you identify what “one thing can be true” after reading the articles. Then back up your assertions with reliable data.
Have you ever heard of the Jewish ghettos in Eastern Europe. Sure, some jews did well there, but most lived in poverty like Blacks do here. Chinese, Japanese, Korean, and Indian immigrants tend to be middle class. Hmong and Laotian immigrants tend to be poorer. Laotian and Hmong aren’t nearly as successfull.
There is something in the human psyche that makes us look on anyone different from us with suspicion. Members of our own family, tribe, etc. are more comfortable to us and strangers are a potential threat. Racism is simply this attitude taken to its logical extreme.
OK, the data posteded by stuff shows a a zillioin facts but in general that a) blacks are committing crimes at similar rates to whites b)while blacks constitute 35% or teh drug users, they have a much higher rate of incarceration for drug offenses and c) that the ratio of blacks in prison is usually higher than that of general society.
I find it very interesting that blaks, being the minority are still able to commit almost as many crimes as the white majority. This does not argue that blacks are equally prone to crime. Rather the opposite, it shows that tehy commit a lot of crimes for their numbners. Now why they do this is a different matter. I am not suggesting that they are infeior beings.
The number of black drug users is pretty much irrelevant. What we need to know is how many are dealers. It would also be helpful to know how many sell hard drugs. It is entirely possible that their sentences reflect the fact that they are arrested for dealing drugs that carry a minimum sentence.
As for their representation, the report linked above strongly suggests that more blacks are arrested and thrown in jail whites solely because of their color. But the fact remains that they are still committing crimes. So either the law isn’t arresting white offenders, it is finding blacks and framing them or more blacks are committing crimes for which one is likely to be encarcerated.
Mr. Z, as for Blacks commiting more crimes. Now it would be a succesful time to apply your “income” theory. I.e., more (meant a higher percentage)of Blacks live in poverty than whites, and therefore, the need to turn to crime would be much greater. (By the way this is mostly supposition, but Im sure it’s supportable by census figures)
As for the dealer to possesion ratio. I’m sure the drug library at http://www.drcnet.org would have reliable numbers. If not them then I believe it would be in the uniform crime study, that the FBI maintains. Give me till tommorrow and Ill do a some research and analysis.
Now would you clear up this post of yours. Im not sure where you were going. Can you elaborate?
". Is is something in black culture. I am told by those with more experience in the matter that black men and woment take pride in getting pregnant. "
I will tell you where I am going.
Society is not holding down blacks under our current society. Rather, they have a culture that, for whatever reason, is not conducive to success.
What I mean is that every culture has certain values that may or may not make them successful. If swilling vodka all day is part of the culture, those in it will probably not be successful. If the culture values working yourself almost to death and saving money, that culture will probably financially successful.
There are certain aspects of black culture that prevent failure. I was using having children early on in life as an example of one cultural value that makes it nigh unto impossible to succeed.
There are many subcultures on the white world that have similar values that hold those subcultures down.
what I have been getting at all along is that it is not the white man keeping down certain minorities. It is their own culture.
I will tell you where I am going.
Society is not holding down blacks under our current society. Rather, they have a culture that, for whatever reason, is not conducive to success.
What I mean is that every culture has certain values that may or may not make them successful. If swilling vodka all day is part of the culture, those in it will probably not be successful. If the culture values working yourself almost to death and saving money, that culture will probably be financially successful.
There are certain aspects of black culture that tend towards failure. I was using having children early on in life as an example of one cultural value that makes it nigh unto impossible to succeed. I know that at teh free clinics and reproductive health facilities where my wife works, young black girls are generally pretty proud to be pregnant. This is not to say that this is true of all black people.
There are many subcultures on the white world that have similar values that hold those subcultures down. You don’t see many Bikers as CEO’s and there aren’t many investment bankers with facial tattoos.
what I have been getting at all along is that it is not the white man keeping down certain minorities. In fact, society is not “keeping down” anyone. It is the culture and values held by certain groups that predict their success.
Sorry for the double post. It keeps saying that the operation timed out and then posts anyway.
I have to respond to your last posting.
You talk/write as if White and Black American cultures are two separate cultures in two separate worlds. Sorry, this is not true: ask any African American who has traveled overseas what their experience has been like. I assure you that many will say that their travel experiences showed them “how American they really are…” I don’t want to put words in folks mouths, but I have heard this over and over again - especially when talking about travel in Latin America, Africa and Asia. Yeah, there are differences but I think that alot of nonAmericans will concurr.