I think you nailed it. It’s “selfish”, but not by malice, but by inability to see beyond the pain-the pain a person is in blinds you to everything else.
Depression is a disease. Despair is one of the results of it. A person who is suicidal is rarely, if ever, rational enough to be considered “selfish”, as we think of it. Depression often distorts one’s ability to think rationally, to be reasonable.
It’s very selfish, but most don’t realize that it’s so selfish due to the fact that they are tied up at the moment thinking of other things, such as, killing themselves.
So I would say that if people who have committed suicide could look back on it, they would probably be like, “damn, that was pretty selfish of me to do.”
But at the time, they’re not thinking clearly, obviously.
If I’d killed myself years ago when I was thinking about it, my parents would have been very angry at me for what I’d done to them. But when I asked them for help, I didn’t get it. They don’t believe in psychiatrists. They thought I was being melodramatic. They thought I was being “ridiculous”. They were angry at me just for thinking about it-- just for telling them I was thinking about it. It was all about them and how it would affect them. Everytime someone talks about how selfish suicides are, I think about them. They’d have been right up there with ya.
Depressed people are unbearable to live with. Impossible to live with. We’re all human, and being humans we get angry at this miserable, whiney, unpleasant person who always sees the bad side of things, lives in filth, and won’t get off the couch. My family turned away, my friends turned away. No one could deal with me. My strongest memory of the whole experience, the one that sticks with me, is how angry everyone was with me. I felt like I was nothing but a source of misery to everyone around me. I honestly felt like it would make everyone happier if I was dead. Yes, they wanted me to be better, but at no point did I feel like they wanted me as I was. Since I was sure I’d never get better, well, being dead was the only option. I wanted so much to stop the misery I was causing everyone.
I was held back from the brink my exactly one person, who made me believe that she needed me, broken though I might be. Taking care of me was just about a full time job, and I drained her and just about wrecked her life in the process. I don’t know if I’ll ever forgive myself for that, or ever make up for it. But she never let on how much I was hurting her-- I don’t think I would have survived if she had, to be honest. I believed I made her happy, and that was my sole and only reason for living for months on end.
I am better. But had I done it, I would have truly believed it was a completely selfless act, done to relieve others of the burden of dealing with my worthless existance. I still remember what that felt like. Still chills my bones.
Obsidian, your story reminds me of an ex-gf of mine. She was clearly having emotional problems, and I tried to tell her parents that they needed to get her to a shrink, but they wouldn’t listen and blamed all of her problems on me. Even after she slashed her wrists (not deeply enough to be serious, but enough to be scary), they didn’t see the need for her to get help. It was only after the signs of anorexia were pointed out to them by the family doctor did they realize that she needed help. (Then they just dumped her into an institution for a couple of months, with little concern for her actual welfare. How she managed to survive to adulthood, I’ll never know.)
As someone who’s been suicidal off and on for most of the last ten years (and who has known several people who’ve done it), I can assure you that the feelings of others has been exactly what has prevented me from doing so. Each and every time. From the folks I’ve loved the most and to those I don’t even know (like the emergency personal that would have to clean up after me). And it’s my humble opinion, after more therapy than Tom Cruise could use, three hospital stays, more prescriptions than House or Rush and any other avenue available (books, CDs, articles, anything online, advice from everyone out the ass), I certainly think I’ve given this trying to get better business a shot, at least nominally. 
Anyway, since there may be no end in sight (I’m 38 and perhaps this’ll go on until the end of my natural life and, theoretically, means I’ll have fought this most of my entire existence) and the only thing that’s kept me here is others, who exactly is the selfish party? I’d never be so arrogant as to think that someone in that much pain should stick around just for my benefit. Especially if I can’t do anything to help. Also, I’d never presume to project any of my feelings about this on to someone else contemplating suicide. Maybe their situation is much, much worse and who am I too judge? Certainly being so glib (thanks to jsgoddess for nailing the right word), is idiotic. I know in my own case that the person who espouses this belief (my mother), has also been the most detrimental to my me in every capacity and the one least inclined to bear any responsibility for anything. And although she’s witnessed the huge, never-ending struggle I’ve gone through to a ridiculous degree, if I did kill myself, her hurt would be all about her and nothing else that’s ever mattered. My intentions, despite the vastness, would mean zilch.
For all of those who can’t understand why suicide, in general, is not about selfishness, consider the following. Suppose your best friend’s birthday is coming up and you’ve gone all out throwing a big, exciting party with lots of family and friends. The venue is hired, the music loud, the wine flowing. You’re at your friend’s house getting ready when she suddenly moans in agony - one of her infrequent but horrendous migraines has just arrived. She knows from experience that nothing will help her, and she will be more or less incapacitated for quite a few hours. The pain is unbearable, but exposure to any noise and lights makes it even worse, and the only thing she can do is got to bed and avoid all stimulation. Being her best friend and having seen this before, you understand and assure her not to worry that you’ll explain to everybody why she can’t come to her own party. You go to the party and explain to people why she’s not there, and most of them are sympathetic. However, there are some who just don’t understand. They ask why she can’t just take aspirin. They say how they’ve heard about new drugs for migraines that are supposed to work. They point out how much effort they’ve put into getting everything just right for this big party, and how selfish of her it is to be lazing in bed just because of a bit of a headache. After all, she could have shown up if she really wanted to - it’s not like she’s having an emergency appendectomy. So, is it selfish of her not to subject herself to total agony by going? I rather think it would be selfish for the guests to want to impose that on her.
Of course this can’t compare to a suicide attempt, but the lack of understanding is similar. Like the non-party goer, the person considering suicide is doing it to finally end their unbearable pain. Of course not everybody’s pain is the same, and there are isolated cases where one motivating factor does indeed seem to be selfishness (the case of the NY doctor who destroyed his home and himself with it so that his ex-wife couldn’t sell it comes to mind).
Yes, having a loved one commit suicide is horrible. Besides having to grieve, the survivors are left wondering what they could have done differently. They may ask themselves “how could she do this to me.” The answer is that she didn’t. She did it to herself because she was incapable of imagining a lessening of her pain.
Contrary to what lots of people have been conditioned to believe, some lives aren’t worth living. It’s as simple as that. There’s no shame in opting out. It’s a personal decision and all the guilt trips in the world aren’t going to make a pointless life meaningful.
My brother called me recently talking about how much despair he felt and how he doesn’t see anything ever changing and that he was thinking of killing himself. His perception, and I can’t argue with it, is that he has been depressed his whole adult life and can’t see it changing. It’s not worth surviving just for the sake of surviving, if there’s no happiness. He can’t understand why other people are happy and he had never been. He is on a few meds and only recently has he felt this bad, so I said maybe he could get the meds re-evaulated, or wait it out as maybe it’s a phase. That wasn’t me being not understanding about depression, just that I go through phases too and come out the other side.
I’m depressive too but am on meds and it’s only briefly gotten bad enough that I considered suicide. I am relatively content: not happy, but fatalistic enough to accept that I won’t be happy and life isn’t fair. But that’s OK and I can still have some value in the world. He says he can’t stand just going to work and coming home to nothing. He was describing my life as well! but I find little things to content me.
Our mom was suicidal the whole time we were growing up (not that we knew that, she was very good at being there for us despite her pain) and now at 63 says she hasn’t felt like killing herself for a few years. Do I ask him to wait it out another 25 years and maybe things will get better?
The thing is, I can’t really argue with him. Yes, it’s his perception and may not be quite true, but it’s the truth to him right now. And it’s not far from the Truth. I try to tell him too that just by being around he is making himself available for things to come to him. He doesn’t have the will to seek out things that might make him more content, but perhaps something will come his way.
What’s weird is that he was recently in the hospital for a heart attack and while he sedated my parents and I discussed life support. My brother had expressed how he had brought the attack on himself (drug use, etc.) and wished he had just died from it. It was a second heart failure that put him under and made us have to evaulate options. What he had said after the first attack made me pull for no extraordinary measures and I said, what if we bring him back only to have him kill himself later? Wouldn’t it be better to allow a natural death? My father said he believes suicide is a natural death. He’s Catholic and wouldn’t do it, but didn’t see that if you didn’t believe it was morally wrong that it wasn’t an option!
So even though he has always been not happy, there are recent stressors that may be exacerbating it: the heart attack and subsequent diabetes diagnosis, no more drugs and alcohol which were an escape, appealing medical bills, etc. Even I have the same feelings he does when thinking about the things he has to take care of: a flood of despair at these responsibilities, because it doesn’t feel worth it.
Anyway, I feel some obligation to come up with the right thing to say to turn him around but I know there is probably no such thing. And I am not horrified by the thought of him killing himself because I understand it. This is tough.
But I don’t think he’s being selfish. But is that because he’s not leaving behind dependents and the rest of his family wouldn’t really blame him? And we aren’t that close so it wouldn’t be a devastating blow? Or because we were brought up to be independent and not think too much about obligations to our other family members? This is tough.
But that’s what’s tough in my brother’s case. He’s crazy smart, though socially inept, and I know he has a lot to offer. He has a good sense of humor and is the quirky kind of nerd who would be treasured on the Dope. 
He just doesn’t feel the energy to pursue other activities outside work, and I understand that. It may be pointless to him but it is valuable to others, and in interacting with others he may find a point.
Wait, have I just said he in killing himself he would be being selfish to all those he could have interacting with? But if in effect that would never happen because he is sick, it becomes moot. I think I would express that as, too bad for all he couldn’t do because he was sick, not because he killed himself. If it was never going to happen, no sense in projecting it.
I know many people who have seemingly meaningful lives but they aren’t meaningful to THEM, and that’s really all that matters. Of course you’d miss the person and feel bad that they weren’t able to attain a sense of worth and happiness, but you can’t feel “it” for someone else. “It” has to come from within to be a motivator. For some people, it never happens or it happens so rarely as to make the rest of their existence a chore. I would rather see the pain stop for someone I love.
Then in my case I perhaps meant something different with the term “selfishness.”
During my depressive event, which I most certainly willed myself into (tho I didn’t
view it that way at the time) over a period of months/years, it was all about ME. MY
feelings, MY sadness, MY agony-why do >I< feel so bad?
That is what I meant upthread about it all being about divine egotism-I “anti-
worshipped” myself into the most terrible funk I could imagine. But instead of
worshipping myself as a sort of huge egotistical ass, I dumped every last bit of
virtiol onto/into myself and sliced my ego into tiny ribbons. It was no less
egotistical than some self-proclaimed hotshot flaunting his fast cars and cheap
floozies and telling the world how great he was. Instead I told myself how
worthless I was (inwards AND backwards).
The key for me was realizing that I needed an avenue to express/use my
compassion (which happened 15 years ago this month). Be it working with
threatened or injured wildlife or kids (I’m a tutor now) I escaped myself and my
egotism and was transformed in the process by focusing on the sufferings of
others. Now perhaps from a certain perspective that is no less foolish than the
kinds of debilitating mind games I played before (hence my nom-de-plume), but
it did more or less kill my depressive tendencies.
OK, makes sense. I thought you were making an absolute statement about some lives being meaningless, not the assessment from the person themself.
[Emphasis mine.]
First of all, I’m a little partial to your name as well. 
Secondly, as I’m sure you know, what works for one person doesn’t necessarily do the same for another. Argh, I hate constantly using myself as a data point, but I don’t feel qualified to ever speak for someone else. So, that means I’ve tried, repeatedly, exactly what you suggest above. Volunteering, service oriented jobs, hobbies that help others and yet, like gigi talked about her brother, you can’t just turn off your own sickness because you do ____________. Even for the people who turn it around that way, it doesn’t mean that anyone else can.
But I am thrilled to say how awesome it is that you’ve apparently got this thing beat. Good on you and best of luck.
Whoever moderated that link needs to lighten up. In act this whole thread made me feel like killing myself.
FRDE - do you know of “rantforum”??? If you do, I can believe I’ve found you after all this time.
(Is it just me, or does it seem like middle school let out early this year??)
Ok…here’s my opinion. To say that “suicide is a selfish act” is itself a hypocritical and selfish statement. Or, at least, displays a blatant lack of empathy for the person who just killed him/herself. It’s like these people are more concerned about getting their feelings hurt than whatever’s going on inside the suicidal person’s head.
My cousin killed herself five years ago. The family’s more or less recovered from the shock by now (better than most families, though we will never be the same again) but sometimes I think I’m the only relative who truly comprehends what was going through her mind at the time. And I don’t hold it against her. I was there, you see, in the same exact situation as her, decades ago. Indeed, the similarities are fuckin’ uncanny…the only difference is that, the next morning, I woke up. She did not.
Frankly, I’m jealous.
Sometimes suicidal gestures are merely a cry for help, especially in teenage years. Sometimes you’re just going through a tough phase and don’t understand that things will get better. Sometimes, it’s clinical depression…and with depression, you shouldn’t assume that the person just needs to take a few pills & attend some self-help classes to get better. Sure, it works for some people. But there are others who don’t respond to medication, or have other mental issues (such as schizophrenia) which render their lives intolerable.
Sometimes, the person has a chronic or terminal illness and they just want to escape the physical pain – but this is a small subset that really isn’t germane to the conversation.
Perhaps it’s better to describe suicide as a “desperate” act. And perhaps, sometimes, suicidal people are truly selfish. But most of them aren’t. They just aren’t thinking clearly…or, in some cases, thinking VERY clearly. Bottom line is, never accuse someone of being “selfish” unless you completely understand what’s going through their minds – otherwise, YOU are the one who is being selfish.
Well it isn’t entirely beat. I still have some minor esteem issues (:cough: opposite sex :cough: ),
but the overall despair thing is gone for good, and has been for quite awhile now. I just realized that by
opening myself up to the world around me (natural as well as other aspects) I got “away” from myself so
to speak and escaped the entire despair cycle. Have also incorporated some Buddhist/Eastern memes
as well, which also helped.
I’m sorry for the loss of your cousin. And I agree with you; if my brother’s never been happy and he’s 40, maybe that’s enough time for him to know things won’t change for him. Who am I to say hold on longer, with no assurance that anything will get any better. He knows his own mind.
I think this is a wise post, gigi. We can love and encourage people, but we can’t know if things will get better, if 40 years of what he sees as futility or despair can ever be turned around.
I hope so. He sounds like a good guy.
And that’s what makes me want to say the right thing to ask him to keep trying. :smack:
Well met !
Last time I checked RF it looked as if the Chief had pulled the plug
Would you like an entirely plausible, but bogus, Email address ?