Is teaching a true profession?

Is teaching a true profession? I’m a new teacher and I say ‘not quite’.

Of the various professional fields – Medicine, Law, Politics, Business, Military Defense and Entertainment – teaching can be compared to any of them and is found mostly wanting. Education should stand with all of them, but except in rare and mostly individual cases, this is not so.

  1. Teachers are not automatically paid commensurate with their skill, knowledge, talent or experience.

  2. Teaching is still organized on an obsolete agricultural seasonal model in many parts of the country.

  3. Teaching shares more in common with trade organizations than traditional professions. Particularly in hierarchy, wages, benefits, and prestige.

  4. Teachers largely do not have support staff, as true professionals do.

  5. True professions have never had governing bodies made up of people outside the profession to dictate policy and standards.

  6. Pop cultural perception marginalizes and trivializes teaching. Just look at “Boston Public.”

  7. Teaching at all levels needs more men.

I have pride in my new career. I love my job. I try hard to be professional. But while teaching will probrably become a true profession in my lifetime, teaching’s not there yet.

This is from a nursing text. see: http://jan.ucc.nau.edu/~erw/nur301/profession/characteristics/

Not so fast.

Most public and even private schools have a salary schedule based on the teacher’s experience, degrees and/or academic certification. Yes there are inequities, but there are inequities in any field where the practitioner does not set his/her own salary.

Medicine is still based on the antiquated notion of interns working 48 hours straight. Firefighters regularly work similar schedules. There are a number of professions that retain practices that made more sense a century ago.

That’s principally because they’re in a bureaucratized system. Public defenders, military physicians and corporate scientists also have such a structure imposed on them. The structure does not define the profession.

Which professionals are you talking about? I know lawyers with no more support staff than a receptionist. Members of the clergy commonly do not have “paraministers” trailing behind them. Some teachers do have aides and assistants in their classrooms.

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I have to admit I’m not up to speed on the makeup of the various states’ boards of healing arts, but every profession is subject to some sort of governmental oversight. In fact, oversight by an outside licensing body is one of the criteria that separate professionals from craftspersons.

Pop culture marginalizes and trivializes everything it touches. Do you want to be represented in court by anyone from Ally McBeal? Do you want your house fire put out by “The Fighting Fitzgeralds?”

I agree, but there are gender imbalances in other professions. That does not negate their professionalism.

If you’re arguing that teaching is not RESPECTED as a profession, you’ll find no one who agrees with you more strongly. But to argue that you’re not a professional because you do not comply with a theoretical standard (that no profession complies with 100% anyway) is the wrong way to tackle the problem, and only gives more ammunition to those who would further trivialize your training, duties and dedication.

kunilou, not so fast yourself.

1. Most public and even private schools have a salary schedule based on the teacher’s experience, degrees and/or academic certification. Yes, there are inequities, but there are inequities in any field where the practitioner does not set his/her own salary.

Here’s the salary schedule of a nearby school district.

It’s not about inequities, kunilou. Salaries are too low. Our salaries are not determined – not by the quality of our teaching, or our experience, or market forces – but by what taxpayers are willing to bear depending on how long we’ve worked.

The only certification with any strong prestige is national certification, which earns you a whopping $10,000 per year more. But you can’t take National Certification exams unless you’ve had a minimum four years experience. And according to most statistics, the average beginning teacher has left the field for a better paying job by then. To be honest, so might I.

And contrary to what you might think, most private schools pay teachers LESS than public schools, not more. The main advantage to private schools is that you deal with less discipline problems and have more active parents.

2. Medicine is still based on the antiquated notion of interns working 48 hours straight. Firefighters regularly work similar schedules. There are a number of professions that retain practices that made more sense a century ago.

Those other professions still work year round, no?

I was talking about the length and start/end of the school year/day, which affects everybody in the system, from the administrators to teachers to the students. Not just medical interns every 48 hours.

This is changing. The 9 month teaching year is slowly giving away to an 11 or 12 month year. I myself went to year round school in Michigan my first two years in school and every student/teacher should have the benefit of 6 weeks in, 2 weeks off. It cuts down on burnout, absenteeism, boredom and loss of retention of knowledge.

This antiquated practice of ‘summers off’ is a disservice to our profession, and public perception of our profession, the children we serve in our profession, and our national standing as compared to the school year students experinence in other countries.

We don’t need seasonal unemployment. With respect to agricultural workers, we’re not migrant workers.

3. That’s principally because they’re in a bureaucratized system. Public defenders, military physicians and corporate scientists also have such a structure imposed on them. The structure does not define the profession.

Maybe not, but if it looks like a duck…

4. Which professionals are you talking about? I know lawyers with no more support staff than a receptionist. Members of the clergy commonly do not have “paraministers” trailing behind them. Some teachers do have aides and assistants in their classrooms.

Exactly.

Lawyers at least have a receptionist to take calls/ file briefs/ type letters/ organize billing/ make appointments/ assist clients… even in a small practice. I have 20-25 students (or clients, if you prefer) per day I need to teach, monitor, assess, test, discipline, guide and plan for. Where’s MY aide? I have never known a clergyman of an organized religion that didn’t at least have a church secretary to help out.

Yes, some teachers have aides, you’ll agree that this is not the case for the vast majority of teachers.

Any ‘para-’ “trailing behind” anybody is not doing their job.

5. I have to admit I’m not up to speed on the makeup of the various states’ boards of healing arts, but every profession is subject to some sort of governmental oversight. In fact, oversight by an outside licensing body is one of the criteria that separate professionals from craftspersons.

Ah. But the ‘outside licensing bodies’ are usually made up people IN the profession. Not historically so with school boards or licensing agencies. But it’s gotten a lot better in the last 30 years. I also think that this is perhaps my weakest argument, which is why I threw in the word ‘historically’, there. :wink:

6. Pop culture marginalizes and trivializes everything it touches. Do you want to be represented in court by anyone from Ally McBeal? Do you want your house fire put out by "The Fighting Fitzgeralds?"

Pop culture often marginalizes, but it has also seen to exalt and revere a specific number of occupations, too. Teaching isn’t among them.

It’s fine with me if there’s a ‘Ally McBeal’ if there’s other shows that dramatize, say, the legal profession in an enlightened way, as do ‘Law & Order’ and ‘L.A. Law’ in its heyday – but when has there ever been the educational equivalent to ‘ER’ on TV or in the movies? ‘Stand By Me’, ‘Stand and Deliver’ and ‘Mr. Hollands’ Opus’, ‘Dangerous Minds’ came close, and I thoroughly enjoyed ‘Dead Poets Society’-- but these films are not pop culture phenomenona. They also tell the same old story (dedicated teacher enters impoverished school environment and through trials and tribulation, improves the lot of his/her plucky students) and teaching is way more complicated than that, and not always satisfactory.

I also prefer it if TV shows told a straight story about school from the perspective of teachers, instead of students, as is usually the case. As it is, I watch ‘Boston Public’ because I’m hoping it’ll tone down the hysterical theatrics by next year.

For the record, I’d want my house rescued by a firefighter from ‘Third Watch.’

7. I agree, but there are gender imbalances in other professions. That does not negate their professionalism.

I never said it had anything to do with professionalism (behavior) but it has everything to do with why it’s not a profession (prestigous occupation). Gender imbalances are a large part of teaching’s perceptions as an inadequately paid profession, mostly because it’s filled with women, and women have never been paid their worth in the marketplace. Same with nursing. Same with corporate business.

If you want more equitable pay, you need to get more men in teaching, especially at the elementary level. I’ve been in schools where the only adult male was either the custodian or cook, sometimes both.

If you’re arguing that teaching is not RESPECTED as a profession, you’ll find no one who agrees with you more strongly. But to argue that you’re not a professional because you do not comply with a theoretical standard (that no profession complies with 100% anyway) is the wrong way to tackle the problem, and only gives more ammunition to those who would further trivialize your training, duties and dedication.

We are obviously in deep agreement that teaching is not respected. What I’m arguing is that while good teachers aspire to be professionals, conduct themselves professionally, and yearn for the respect attached to professional fields – but the harsh hard truth is that Education, as a whole, is NOT yet a profession.

Educators would only benefit as a profession if they had better pay/ or benefits tied to merit, classroom assistance, worked a year round school year, and were seen in the popular culture as the hardworking and undervalued group we are.

My other point is that those who criticize teaching have a couple of damned good points, and it’s time we teaching professionals acknowledge them. Yeah, we may not have it quite as good as ‘real’ professionals, but dammit we WILL get there.

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That’s the fantastic things about unions though!! And I’d say market forces did have something to do with it. After all if they couldn’t find any teachers at the wages they pay they’d have to offer additional benefits or wages.

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10,000 a year more is a lot of money to most people.

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Who cares? Working year round does not a professional make. While I think a year round schedule makes more sense it doesn’t make teaching less of a profession.

On the other hand what’s the big deal with being “professional?” I always thought a professional was someone who was trained for their job and got paid for doing it. I don’t think of being degreed as a requirement for being professional.

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Uh, ok. I’m not sure how it is a disservice to the public perception of teaching.

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My wife’s a degreed professional in agriculture. Does that mean she can’t be a professional since the work is fairly seasonal?

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Maybe you don’t need an aide.

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I don’t think so. It seems to me that the public thinks that teachers walk on water and can do no wrong. Who needs a television show exalting them when the public thinks their angels?

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Bank tellers used to be all male. Do you think it was a high paying job when this was the case?

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Or people could decide “I’m not going to be a teacher because it doesn’t pay enough.” Then maybe the wages would go up.
Marc

Wrong answer, please try again! The taxpayers aren’t willing to foot the bill, eh? Is that why public school teachers are payed more than private school teachers (contrary to what I originally thought, free market worshipper that I am)?

There is no competition in public schooling to allow market forces to affect pay schedules; even if there were, the unions would screw that up anyway.

“Yea, you have locked yourselves up in cages of fear and now do ye complain of being not free.” ~~Mal2, KSC

For how necessary education is I, as well, do not understand why teachers aren’t payed more. Think it has something to do with the huge beauracracy that stands above teachers and doesn’t actually teach anything themselves?

Teachers unions – particularly the National Education Association – don’t negotiate higher salaries on behalf of their memberships as a primary function, but rather, offer legal protection, services and benefits, as well as the general promotion of the field. If the NEA were all about getting bigger salaries, it would organize, then stand the line on, a national teacher’s strike in a heartbeat.

I don’t mean to poo-poo a $10,000 pay increase – that’s a lot to me, too – but assuming I made $40,000 in my fifth year teaching, earned a Nationl Board Certification and you added ten grand on top of it, at $50,000 I’d be making a lot less than the average business major working in corporate America.

Marc, let’s quit switching meanings. A profession and acting professional are two different things. A professional teacher isn’t IN a profession if s/he routinely lacks staff support, isn’t paid commensurate to his/her skill or ability, and isn’t accorded the same level of repect as those in other professions. Not teaching year-round shouldn’t be a prerequisite to being considered in a profession but let’s face it: a summer break adversely affects the knowledge most students retain and contributes vastly to the perception that teaching is glorified babysitting: “You only work 9 months a year!”

Believe me, if your child’s teacher works alone, is halfway dedicated, wants to assess children’s cognitive skills or test for learning disorders – s/he needs an aide. Maybe not full-time. But an aide is needed if only to give us a break from the paperwork while we observe/plan/assess/test, etc.

Also, your wife may be degreed, and may surely act professional, but it doesn’t mean she’s IN a profession. But your definition of ‘professional’ is surely less stringent than mine.

The rest of your comments aren’t really worth debating about, if you think the general public thinks teachers can do no wrong, yet aren’t worth exalting in pop culture, but somehow are not worth paying more – there’s no way I’m going to change your mind. You’re confused enough as it is.

ayndrandlover, market forces would definitely come into play if there were state-wide or a national voucher system put into effect. School with the best reputations would attract the best teachers and take the best students. Other schools would get the leftovers. The best thing about such a system is the social Darwinism that would go into effect and the implicit satisfaction of parental choice ‘paying’ for a child’s education. The worst thing is the choas it would ensue just getting it in place. The good thing is that unless we are on the brink of another 12 years of Republican presidency, I am reasonably sure vouchers on a wide scale will never happen.

As for beauracracy and unionization affecting our pay, our unions just don’t work like the Teamsters. And yes, administrators don’t know anything. (Needlessly snippy carp.)

I think you’ve been hanging out with GDers too much, Marc. Get into a discussion about teacher pay with most people, and, invariably, the comment “I’d love to only work nine months a year” will be made. I think it’s a reasonable argument that this devalues teachers by insinuating that they work a lot less hard than the rest of us.

On another point, though:

Doesn’t your school have a secretary, Askia? Doesn’t she take messages for you and deliver mail and such? That’s about what mine does, and I’m a “professional.”

{hoping she doesn’t end up double posting this)

Granted, one can pick and choose elements of what defines a profession in making this argument. BUT–The ones that stick out for me are autonomy, prestige, required education, recognized expertise in an area of knowledge, and licensure. You’ve got me with my pants down, as I don’t have references handy, but I want to say it was Gould who wrote about the professions a lot in the 60s and is still widely quoted and drawn upon by sociologists.

You’ve hit upon some good arguments re: prestige and autonomy. Architects, engineers, doctors, etc., don’t have to answer to as many external bodies (who do not share their training) as do teachers. The fact that some teachers have to defer to them in choosing course content, selecting textbooks, and evaluation of performance (theirs and their students) suggest that autonomy is real problematic. And you’re right that prestige seems to be dropping (both from the pay and the public image standpoint).

I don’t recall gender makeup, obsolete models of work schedules, or support staff being hallmarks of a profession, but then again I might be cherry-picking. I think we could argue that collegefaculty in a given discipline do, indeed, qualify as a profession, and they generally have the same academic calendar. I don’t think that’s the deal-breaker.

However, many of the other elements still qualify. Licensure is still generally required. So is a specific education. Teachers learn pedagogy as well as subject matter, so combined, that’s their “body of knowledge.” Tenure still affords a degree of autonomy, though how much is questionable.

Necros: The school secretary pretty much sticks to her desk at my school. I’ve never known her to get the mail. Any phone calls come to me via my pager or mobile unless they’re from the district office. Next year, we’ll be getting phones installed in all the classrooms (ANOTHER thing pros like lawyers and doctors have access to. PHONES.)

If I asked my school secretary to leave her desk to monitor my room during a test, to run a stack of test papers through a ScanTron and add them in my grade book, to draft a letter to the PTA while I dictate, or average my mid-semester grades, I’m sure she’d look at me as if I’d lost my mind.

CrankyAsAnOldMan: I totally agree that university faculty enjoy more prestige and autonomy than teachers in the public schools. They are where the rest of us aspire to be. But say the word “teacher” to the average person and the last image that pops into their head is ‘dedicated university professor’ – like whasisname in THE PAPER CHASE. They’re more apt to think about Scott Guber shooting a gun off in the classroom on ‘Boston Public.’

This argument is going off in way to many directions.

Askia, please define what makes a “professional” to you.

Cranky has a pretty good working definition. My own definition of “professional” is somewhat traditional:

One who receives specialized training, and may be required to continue training. The training is in a classroom setting using standardized curricula, not from serving an apprenticeship.

One who is licensed or certified by an independent body as capable of performing competently

One who is governed by a (usually non-binding) code of ethics by a professional organization.

Salary, work schedules and gender are not qualifications for being a “professional.”

Under my definition, physicians, nurses, lawyers, architects, ministers (not licensed, but recognized by the state), veterinarians and teachers qualify as professions.

Bankers, plumbers, journalists and real estate agents are not “professionals” although I think the term “craftsperson” is honorable in its own right.

By the way, the last time I heard, beginning architects (can we all agree that architects are professionals?) made an absolutely terrible average salary, and unless they made partner (therefore, owner) remained poorly paid throughout their careers.

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Boo hoo, I’ll cry a river of tears for you. Only 40,000 during your fifth year of teachings! For Christs sake no single person could possibly live off of $40,000 a year. This is a travesty.

Let’s not forget a few other benefits that might come into play. How many teachers find themselves without jobs because of downsizing? Of course let’s not forget that their pay rate has little to do with them being “professionals.”

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I wasn’t aware the assistants were a requirement for one to become a professional. In fact I’d really like to know how you came to that conclusion. Just because a lot of “professionals” have assistants does not mean that it is a requirement.

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Because in a lot of places teachers are glorified babysitters. But I seriously doubt that has anything to do with a nine month work schedule.

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A lot of teachers seemed to do just fine in the past without aides. I don’t recall any of my teachers having anyone to help out except for the occasional student teachers.

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Nobody here will ever accuse me stating that everyone is equal in all regards, just ask some of my socialist comrads on these boards. However your definition of professional strikes me as being rather elitist and snobbish. You actually complained that pop culture doesn’t celebrate your profession with television shows. WTF? You don’t see many shows that glorify engineers do you? Oh wait, Tony Stark was a mechanical engineer and he created the Iron Man suit. Ok, you win, teachers aren’t “professionals.” But who cares? And why?

Marc

Well, maybe I’m not a professional. As a software engineer, I got most of my training on the job, and honestly don’t have a college degree. I guess I do attend class occasionally in order to further my educations, but most of the time, it’s more on the level of apprenticeship, I guess. I’m not licensed or certified, and I certainly don’t hold to the tenets of, nor am I a member of, the International Society of Dweebs With Machines, Local #237.

I’m not sure I’m comfortable with your definition, kunilou.

Let’s see, teachers have to be parents, babysitters, risk their lives, are responsible for a whole ton of things, and forty grand a year is too much?

sigh

THIS attitude is why the Fight Against Ignorance is taking so long, I’m afraid. :frowning:

Teachers are so very underappreciated.

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Who here said 40 grand a year is to much? Personally I wouldn’t object to paying teachers more but I’m not going to pretend that 40 grand a year isn’t a decent amount of money. And since when do teachers risk their lives on a day to day basis?

Fine. But the OP wasn’t about teaching being underappreciated.

Marc

True, I’m just pointing that out.

Actually, depending, 40,000 a year MIGHT not be much, depending on if you have a family. Certainly to me, it’s a LOT, but to someone like my family, it might not be.

Teachers do-think of all the violence we complain about. And that may be an exaggeration, but think of some dangerous areas they go into. They also are responsible for a hell of a lot.

but you’re right, I’m hijacking…

Hey, I did’t mean to jump down your throat for hijacking. I’m all for hijacking threads.

The focus of the OP wasn’t on how bad teachers had it, whether or not we should improve pay, improve working conditions, or even respect teachers more. No, the OP instead focused on whether or not teachers were “professionals” in a manner that reeks of elitism.

And I don’t think teachers risk their lives on a daily basis when they go into work. At least not the vast majority of them. I could argue that with office shootings being what they are they’re entitled to just as much hazard pay as teachers. I’d think a 7-11 clerk would be in more risk of physical harm then a teacher.

Marc

Sooooo… I’ve got MGibson, who’s all for hijacking threads, and kunilou lamenting that this thread is going off in different directions. Let me see if I can get this conversation back on track.

DEFINITION: A true professional is a member of a learned occupation (as CrankyAsAnOldMan cheerfully provided) with prestige, autonomy, required education, recognized expertise in an specialized area of knowledge, and licensure. I’ll add they also need specific resources, tools and staff to be effective. Pay and benefits are a huge factor in prestige, so I’ll add those, too.

CODA: One can act like a professional, i.e., act in the manner in accordance with his/her occupations’s best, highest ideals and skills – and not necessarily be in a learned profession.

ANOMALY: Architecture grew out a trade, carpentry. At its highest ideal, it is not a profession, IMO. It’s an art. Buildings are reviewed for aesthetic value and other influences as much as for function and form. It sounds odd to call architects artists, so we settle on ‘professionals.’

Cooking at its highest ideal is a culinary art. Professional chefs.

Acting at its highest idea is an art. Professional actors.

Teaching, overall, is a trade/craft – drastically redefining itself as a true profession. At its highest ideal – yeah, of course, it is a profession. But the majority of its membership don’t quite apply as professionals.

FACILITATION: Having assistance while performing one’s duties – particularly when your job involves a lot of clerical work – is the norm of every other major profession except teaching. This is one of the major inadequacies of my field that contribute to it being a quasi-profession. Doctors have nurses and secretaries. Lawyers have paralegals and secretaries. Military officers delegate duties to lower ranks and civilian workers. On-air investigative journalists have editors, producers and fact-checkers. Entertainers have agents and “people.” Politicians have staffers. Businessmen have secretaries. Who do teachers have…? (Don’t even know the word to use, do you?)

Paraprofessionals (or paraeducators.) There’s maybe 500,000 nationwide. And parent helpers on field trips.

Student teachers don’t count. If the mentoring teacher is doing what s/he is supposed to that new teacher is being trained to manage their own classroom, not to take over duties in the cooperating teacher’s class.

CODA DEUX: So teachers are expected to teach, and plan, and assess learning, and manage the class, and on top of all that, (and more) do all of the clerical work for their students themselves, which is just dumb. I mean, would you expect your doctor to make your appointments personally? To type your prescriptions? Gather preliminary information? File your tests? Process your tests? Would you want her (or him) to?

EXCULPATION: To some of you, what I’m saying ‘reeks of elitism.’ I’d be damned disappointed if it didn’t. The alternative to such elitism as it affects teaching is a watering down of standards, expectations and prestige just as this field is making strides to becoming a true profession.

Right now there’s a national teaching shortage so severe that in some cities they are pulling degreed candidates off the streets and giving them a crash course in pedagogy (after a background check for drug use, violence and pedophilia) and letting them teach. But I don’t want just anyone with a college degree waltzing in off the street to teach in a classroom without a thorough understanding of classroom management, modeling, assessments and conflict resolution, because then teaching DOES become just glorified babysitting.

Teaching is close to being a true profession, but has a ways to go to get there.


CONFESSION: I used to be a paraprofessional. I was hired with the understanding that I’d work in one fifth grade classroom with one teacher, but within a week I was farmed around to every classroom in the school to do everything from teach a first grade class(!) when the teacher had to step out a few hours to a doctor’s appointment, to bringing order to a unruly class of third graders who’d made a teacher run out the room. While I was initially flattered to help, my later reaction was to balk at all the added duties and I sloughed off. I regret that now, at the time, but for a lousy $7.00 p/h, and no benefits, and everybody taking good 'ol Mr. Hale for granted, I really didn’t need the added stress. But I came out of that experience convinced that what was needed in schools like that were more competent teachers and more paraprofessionals to take the edge off.

FATIGUE: Phew. Bed.

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Ok, teachers aren’t professionals. So what?

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Ok, teachers aren’t professionals. So what?

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As you have pointed out earlier teachers are not professionals.

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Why are you so focused on professional this and professional that?

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Teachers are the lowest rung in the school administration aren’t they? Well not counting paraprofessionals or janitors of course. When you become head of a department, like some public schools have, do you not have teachers working under you?

I could be a degreed professional without assistants couldn’t I? Maybe I’m just not management.

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Sure, they’ve been doing it for a while now. Although I have to wonder what clerical work of mine the teachers did when I attended grade school. In elementary school I had the same teacher for the whole year. I think that was plenty of time for her to assess my learning capabilities and my skills. By the time one gets to middle school and has multiple teachers that shouldn’t be an issue.

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Hmmm…maybe it would help if teachers, and schools, were in the business of making a profit. Perhaps you’ve noticed that almost all of the other professionals out there generate revenue for their company or partnerships. OF course I don’t buy that your “professional” arguements would make for better teachers. Higher pay and more benefits might attract better people into teaching for a living. But according to your definition it wouldn’t make them any more professional.

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Who cares? You’ve not given any good reasons why being a “true profession” is anything to be desired.

I’ll give you this one, sort of. Maybe we just need more teachers so they can have classes of limited size. I wouldn’t expect teachers salaries to hit the stratosphere any time soon. Those are reserved for people who actually make money for someone or provide some sort of service that people need in a bad way.

Marc

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Necros *
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In fairness, by my own definition, I am not a “professional” either. (Mrs. Kunilou, I hasten to point out, IS a teacher and fits every one of my categories.) As I said, it’s a rather traditional definition and goes back to the time where a few jobs called for higher education, and the rest learned on the job, usually under the supervision of someone who had mastered the skills.

That’s why I asked Askia to clarify her definition of “profession” in the OP. I fear this is breaking down into a question of semantics; e.g., how can you call someone a professional if they only make X dollars vs. whether salary has anything to do with it.