Is teaching a true profession?

[Askia]

kunilou said:

That’s why I asked Askia to clarify her definition of “profession” in the OP. I fear this is breaking down into a question of semantics; e.g., how can you call someone a professional if they only make X dollars vs. whether salary has anything to do with it.

1. I’m a “he.”
2. This is absolutely not a question of semantics. I listed criteria for what a “true” profession is, the support systems it has in place, the educational and training requirements of its membership, the minimal resources it has at its members’ disposal to do their jobs well. If your occupation doesn’t meet the criteria established for a profession, then you must accept the (possibly) unpalpable realization that you’re not in a profession. Most people mistakenly assume teaching is a profession and it’s not.

Educational administrators are professionals. State and local superintendents are professionals. The U.S. Secretary of Education is a professional. But classroom teachers are not professionals.

Marc goes:

Ok, teachers aren’t professionals. So what?.. As you have pointed out earlier teachers are not professionals… Why are you so focused on professional this and professional that?

I’m so glad you asked, Marc.

Mostly it’s to get my point across to anyone in education or members of the general public intersted in educational issues, that criticism of teaching is often valid in some very key points that go to the heart of our so-called professionalism. On the whole, we are not professional educators., in actuality and public perception. We’re glorified babysitters and paperpushers, to many. Teaching has made strides since the 70s and I hope it will continue improve.

Our professionalism is important, and I’m so hung up on it, because emergency credentialing as a short-term solution to a long term problem is hurting the public schools.

About my citing pop culture earlier. Pop culture disseminates the idea that for occupations like the law, or medicine, or public safety and criminal investigation, the members strive to attain high standards and work hard at their jobs. Shows like “Boston Public” undermine the importance of our vocation with characters like Harry Senate spreading the ludicrous notion that a teacher stupid enough to bring and fire a loaded weapon in a classroom and retain their job, if it’s part of a “lesson” to prove a “point.” It’s DUMB.

Teachers are the lowest rung in the school administration aren’t they?

Basically. Quasi-professionals, see?

I could be a degreed professional without assistants couldn’t I?

Yes, but that wouldn’t be the norm.

I have to wonder what clerical work of mine the teachers did when I attended grade school. In elementary school I had the same teacher for the whole year. I think that was plenty of time for her to assess my learning capabilities and my skills. By the time one gets to middle school and has multiple teachers that shouldn’t be an issue.

How old are you, Marc?
Where did you go to school?
Was this the case in each grade level you were in elementary school?
And – I’m not trying to be smart here, I’m just asking – were you put into a “higher education track” at an early age or not?

Each of these questions might contribute to how much clerical work your teachers may/may not have had to process about you.

If your teacher is any good, she’s grading all your papers in a accurate fashion, noting your strengths and weaknesses (assessment) and getting them back to in a timely manner (feedback). She’s planning her future lessons and revising her presentation to teach more effectively. This is daily, weekends, afterschool. Sounds like an insane amount lot of work, eh? It is.

Now multiply all that by 30 students in one class, in multiple subject areas. Then multiply that by 30 students per class, per period (and average of 5), as in middle and high school grades.

Insane to do that much rote checking, rechecking, by oneself.

[quote]
Hmmm…maybe it would help if teachers, and schools, were in the business of making a profit. Perhaps you’ve noticed that almost all of the other professionals out there generate revenue for their company or partnerships.

[quote]

Interesting thought. Could you elaborate on this theme, please?

OF course I don’t buy that your “professional” arguements would make for better teachers.

I’d be curious to know what you consider to be the flaw(s) in my reasoning and observations, Marc. Does it pertain to the privatizing of schools as a solution? Care to state them for the record?

Higher pay and more benefits might attract better people into teaching for a living. But according to your definition it wouldn’t make them any more professional.

All I’ve done is argue for more pay, better benefits and more qualified people to teach for a living. I think you need to re-read my arguments again.

You’re doing fine, Marc. Two days ago you wouldn’t even concede I was right about teaching not being a profession – now you’re seeing I’m right, but questioning how important that is. Keep studying and you’ll get this material yet!

– Mr. Hale (giving Marc a gold star)

[Odesio]

*Originally posted by Askia K. Hale *
**

We’re glorified babysitters and paperpushers, to many. Teaching has made strides since the 70s and I hope it will continue improve.

**

I disagree. The vast majority of teachers I had were pretty good at what they did. A few of them were outstanding while I can only think of two in my entire life who were horrible. So far as my public education experience went they really didn’t babysit all that much. Well, except for substitute teachers of course.

**
About my citing pop culture earlier. Pop culture disseminates the idea that for occupations like the law, or medicine, or public safety and criminal investigation, the members strive to attain high standards and work hard at their jobs. Shows like “Boston Public” undermine the importance of our vocation with characters like Harry Senate spreading the ludicrous notion that a teacher stupid enough to bring and fire a loaded weapon in a classroom and retain their job, if it’s part of a “lesson” to prove a “point.” It’s DUMB.

**

If it makes you feel any better Peter Parker, the Amazing Spider-Man, has just recently gone back to his old high school to teach a science class.

**
How old are you, Marc?
Where did you go to school?
Was this the case in each grade level you were in elementary school?
And – I’m not trying to be smart here, I’m just asking – were you put into a “higher education track” at an early age or not?

**

I took advance placement classes when I got to middle school and high school. I don’t recall the teachers having to fill out forms in order for me to get there. I’ve been to school in Germany, Colorado, and Texas and I graduated not so long ago.

**
If your teacher is any good, she’s grading all your papers in a accurate fashion, noting your strengths and weaknesses (assessment) and getting them back to in a timely manner (feedback). She’s planning her future lessons and revising her presentation to teach more effectively. This is daily, weekends, afterschool. Sounds like an insane amount lot of work, eh? It is.

**

By the time I was old enough to have multiple teachers they already had a good idea of my learning abilities. The teacher didn’t have to assess my abilities every year but I’m sure they would have figured out if my grades were considerably lower then average or what they had been in the past.

Also so far as I know teachers do not have complete autonomy when it comes to their lesson plans. Perhaps it was different where you worked.

[quote]
**

[quote]
Hmmm…maybe it would help if teachers, and schools, were in the business of making a profit. Perhaps you’ve noticed that almost all of the other professionals out there generate revenue for their company or partnerships.

Interesting thought. Could you elaborate on this theme, please?

**

I’m not sure how much more I can elaborate. It seems that most professionals generate revenue. Teachers do not so their probably not going to be paid as much as doctors, lawyers, or engineers.

**
I’d be curious to know what you consider to be the flaw(s) in my reasoning and observations, Marc. Does it pertain to the privatizing of schools as a solution? Care to state them for the record?

**

Your flaw is that you believe that “professionalism” is going to make for better schools and education system.

**
All I’ve done is argue for more pay, better benefits and more qualified people to teach for a living. I think you need to re-read my arguments again.

**

Fine, but you need to come up with better opening arguements. You decided to focus on professionalism in particular not me.

**
You’re doing fine, Marc. Two days ago you wouldn’t even concede I was right about teaching not being a profession – now you’re seeing I’m right, but questioning how important that is. Keep studying and you’ll get this material yet!

– Mr. Hale (giving Marc a gold star)
**

I just don’t care whether teachers are considered professionals or not. Personally I don’t think teachers walk on water and are the foundations are society is built on. To me they just do a job just like everyone else.

Marc

[Askia]

Okay, Marc. It’s not my job to convince you to follow my logic and I’ve suspected for awhile you’ve been half-trolling this thread, anyway. I concede you may have a point that teachers don’t generate income – we don’t usually, directly – but dismissing teaching as ‘just another job’ equates teaching on the same level as long distance carrier telemarketing and that’s not a serious debate. That’s being petty.

I don’t believe there’s more you can add to this, do you?

P.S. There’s a couple more things I’ve been meaning to tell you. Dilbert, McGuyver Scotty and Geordi LaForge are all glorified engineers, and while Iron Man’s pretty good (for a paraplegic drunk with a heart condition), Steel could outthink, out-make, and outdesign rings around all of ‘em. Pete-the-photog-Parker may have gone back to teaching a science class, but he at least got a perfect score on his SATs! (As stated in SECRET WARS 2, issue 1, to the Beyonder.) But honestly, Marc, that school shooting plot that got him into the classroom was the dumbest since Mary Jane left him after he rescued her from that guy with the psi-powers! Look, do yourself a favor and treat yourself to Ennis’ story in TANGLED WEB #1. Even better than Bendis’ work on ULTIMATE SPIDER-MAN. Looking forward to the movie, but I hope Tobey McGuire doesn’t suck as bad Clooney – you?

Good teachers are full of surprises.

[Odesio]

*Originally posted by Askia K. Hale *
**Okay, Marc. It’s not my job to convince you to follow my logic and I’ve suspected for awhile you’ve been half-trolling this thread, anyway. I concede you may have a point that teachers don’t generate income – we don’t usually, directly – but dismissing teaching as ‘just another job’ equates teaching on the same level as long distance carrier telemarketing and that’s not a serious debate. That’s being petty.

**

Hey, all I said was that it was just another job. I find it interesting that you were the one who decided that the other job it was on par with was telemarking. Maybe that speaks more about your feelings about teaching then it does mine. Perhaps you would preferred it if I said career instead of job?

I don’t have anything against teaching as a career. I recognize that teaching is a legitimate skill and teaching is not exactly something that everyone can do. But as a career I don’t hold teaching to be any better then law enforcement, law, or business management.

I’m even willing to discuss higher wages, assitants, and perhaps a few other suggestions you made. But please read your OP again and tell me where you stated that you were interested in discussing better ways to educate? You were simply debating whether or not teachers were professionals.

I’m not sure where you got your standards of what constitutes a professional. Teachers seem to fit the following criteria.
Teaching is an occupation that requires training and specialized study.

As professionals teachers adhere to certain standards found withing their particular profession. Assistants and a year round work schedule just don’t happen to be part of that standard

They are engaged in their given activity as a career.

I’ve found no references to professionals requiring assistants, high pay, year round employment, or a imbalance in gender. But as you said your definition of professional is probably more narrow then mine.

**
P.S. There’s a couple more things I’ve been meaning to tell you. Dilbert, McGuyver Scotty and Geordi LaForge are all glorified engineers,

**

I suppose. But McGuyver got lame when he became an eco-warrior in later seasons anyway.

**
and while Iron Man’s pretty good (for a paraplegic drunk with a heart condition), Steel could outthink, out-make, and outdesign rings around all of 'em.

**

I forgot that he was shot. I’ve never been much of an Iron Man fan but at least they got rid of War Machine.

**
Pete-the-photog-Parker may have gone back to teaching a science class, but he at least got a perfect score on his SATs! (As stated in SECRET WARS 2, issue 1, to the Beyonder.) But honestly, Marc, that school shooting plot that got him into the classroom was the dumbest since Mary Jane left him after he rescued her from that guy with the psi-powers!

**

Well hold on to your socks because MJ and Peter have seperated even after her rescue from that nasty brute! Hopefully it won’t be permanent. If it makes you feel any better about the school shooting plot wasn’t nearly as bad as the story arc with multiple Spider-Man clones running around or the 10,000,000,000 Venom symbio suits running around.

**
Look, do yourself a favor and treat yourself to Ennis’ story in TANGLED WEB #1. Even better than Bendis’ work on ULTIMATE SPIDER-MAN. Looking forward to the movie, but I hope Tobey McGuire doesn’t suck as bad Clooney – you?

Good teachers are full of surprises. **

Already picked it up and am interested in how it goes. I read Preacher a while back and it seemed like every comic had someone being sodomized or getting a piece of their face blown off. Although I did like the work he did in Punisher: Welcome Back Frank and I’m not even a big Punisher fan. Not a fan of The Pilgrim though.

Marc