Is That TB Guy The Biggest Asshole Ever, Or What?

[Jodi]

[QUOTE=Capatalist Lion Tamer]
I think most of this could have been avoided had the CDC not hoisted several red flags and generally given him the mushroom treatment from the get-go.
[/quote]

OR, alternatively, it could have been avoided if he had done what he was told by the CDC in Italy (not to fly). OR done as recommended by the Fulton County Health Department in Atlanta (not to fly). OR done as most other reasonable people would have done when told of the likelihood that they have a very serious strain of a disease which, if they have it, will necessitate months of treatment at a particular facility in the U.S.: wait and find out for sure, instead of going to Europe. In other words, there are many ways this could have been avoided, it’s just that most of them require him to take personal responsibility and not be a selfish asshole.

If my life is on the line & I have testimony from an expert in the field that I do not pose a danger to others, then I’m probably going to try save my own life.

If you believe your life is on the line, you don’t jet off to Europe. If you are told by the CDC that you cannot fly because you pose a danger to others – and you have not received any contemporaneous information from an expert in the field that this is NOT in fact the case – then you do not fly. Unless you are a selfish asshole.

Since the CDC gave him no reason to doubt that expert’s testimony & obey their request instead, then it could be argued that he acted in a reasonably safe manner.

This is precisely why the next person will not have the option to “decide” whether he or she will weigh the CDC’s “request” and then flee, placing their own layman’s judgment and self-motivated convenience or personal fear over the hazard to the public’s health. At the time he made these decisions, he could not have KNOWN whether he was acting in a reasonably safe manner or not. THAT is what makes his actions so irresponsible.

He was never given any information that contradicted what the first doctors told him. He received additional information about strain, but not enough to outweigh the fact that he wasn’t contagious and being asked to turn himself in to authorities based on very little information.

“Not enough to outweigh” in his very own layman’s opinion, you mean. And, for the zillionth time, contagiousness is not the extent of the relevant inquiry regarding whether someone presents a public health hazard. I assume you keep harping on contagiousness because you actually have no argument on the issue of whether or not he could have presented a public health hazard for other reasons, such a severity or drug resistance.

He asked exactly that, in very similar words. They refused to give him an answer.

Then he didn’t have enough information to know whether he was or wasn’t a public hazard, did he? Because no answer does not give you any more information that you are NOT a public health hazard then you had before, right? So he knew SOMETHING had changed for the worse – he went from being able to fly to not being able to fly – but he didn’t know what it was. At that point, he had two choices: (1) Do as directed by the CDC, placing himself in their hands or (2) staying put and getting more information from experts on the same level as the CDC, and with the same information as the CDC until a determination was made. His reasonable choices did NOT include haring off without knowing whether he was a public health hazard or not. THAT is the heart of his irresponsibility: He didn’t know whether he was endangering others or not, and he did it anyway.

The real question at this point is why you have your nose so far up the guy’s ass. Is he your brother or something?

[stretch]

First, where is the cite that Fulton County Health told him he could fly? The cites I’ve read of the recording show Fulton County was talking to him about what his stay would be like at the Denver Hospital and they told him he wouldn’t be sequested at the hospital because he was not contagious. Of course, at that point they did not know he had XDR-TB instead of just DR-TB.

Then, in Italy he was contacted by the CDC and told that he has XDR-TB and he must not travel on commercial airlines and needs isolation until an appropriate travel arrangement can be made. The information that he has XDR-TB is all the explanation necessary for isolation–it’s bad, bad, bad and can be super bad if it is passed on to someone in less stellar physical condition than Mr. Speaker. In addition, none of the doctors that had seen Speaker were able to tell if his physical condition had changed – did he have an allergy flare up, cold, anything that was causing a change? Could he have become more contagious in the few days between when he was last seen and the day he was contacted in Rome? Nobody knew for sure, including Mr. Speaker. Everybody at this point should have erred on the side of caution, because that is what you (generic you) do! You don’t decide that your life is more important than everybody else’s.

Of course, many people do decide that they are the center of the universe and put others at unnecessary risk. Those people are assholes. This guy put other people at unnecessary risk. There was absolutely no reason for him to think that going to a hospital in Italy was going to result in them giving him the wrong treatment when it was now know what strain of TB he had. He would have gone into isolation until there was an appropriate method to take him where he needed to be. He, as an educated man, should have known that and I firmly believe he did.

He agreed to the restrictions placed on him and then broke that agreement. He is an asshole.

The Biggest Asshole Ever? Well, there have been bigger assholes at different times, and I believe the several people have him beat on this rap even now. But he is surely a Very Big Asshole and I can’t believe anybody is arguing about that. Hyperbole in a thread title in the Pit. Yep, happens all the time and this isn’t even an egregious example.

PS: Sauron, glad to see you back!

ETA: And what Jodi said.

[Kokopilau]

I just gome home from work, and I was gonna jump into this again, but stretch and **Jodi **have already pretty much said everything I was gonna, so I’ll just say “Yeah! What they said!” and leave it at that.

[Jodi]

Capitalist Lion Tamer, please accept my apologies for the last line of my last post. I had a bit of a bad day, but that was out of line and I apologize.

[stretch]

So, Jodi, how does it feel to have a thread go to 16 pages? I’m sure you thought this one was a no-brainer…guy is asshole, let’s all bitch about him. Instead you get a debate about how Speaker is just an innocent man caught up in the machinations of the government’s plan to interfere with his vacation.

[brazil84]

[QUOTE=brazil84]
I agree, except for the last bit . . . “we were preparing” sounds like BS to me. It’s easy enough to make a claim like that after the fact. “If only you had waited a little longer . . . .” is usually a lie.
[/QUOTE]

I stand by my earlier comment: “We were preparing to send a plane” sounds like a lie. I gather that recent revelations make it more likely so.

[brazil84]

[QUOTE=Sauron]
Look, I can’t provide any better cites than I have. If you don’t want to believe them, that’s your choice, but that Web site seems pretty definitive in terms of research.
[/quote]

Ok, if you accept it then you accept that approximately 5% of all people that Speaker came into contact with in the last 6 months or so will surely die.

Right?

[brazil84]

[QUOTE=Kokopilau]
Okay.

““On both May 22nd and 23rd, HHS/CDC spoke with the patient in Rome, Italy, and informed him of his XDR TB diagnosis; explained the severity of the disease; instructed him to terminate all travel and to cease use of commercial air carriers; and initiated conversations about the need for isolation, treatment and travel alternatives,” Gerberding said in written testimony.”

[/quote]

Umm, nothing there says he was to be quarantined. Just to avoid travel. And you haven’t provided the name of the doctor who gave this advice.

Did you just miss all the above, where “we want you quarantined” automatically has with it “because you may be contagious”? The degree doesn’t matter…it was enough to warrant a call for isolation.

So you admit he never was told that he had become more contagious?

[brazil84]

[QUOTE=Jodi]
One thing that jumps out at me from reviewing your posts in this thread is your repeated insistence that others provide cites for their positions while you freely speculate as to what was or wasn’t done and what you do or do not “buy” and what you do and do not “doubt,” with nary a cite to be seen.
[/quote]

If somebody provides a statistic that doesn’t make any sense, it’s legitimate to call them on it.

Look, do you agree that if you accept the interpretation that’s being offered of this paper that approximately 5% of all people that Speaker came into contact with – even people he was in contact with before he left for Europe – will surely die?

And plenty of cites have been offered that Speaker was advised he was not contagious. “nary a cite to be seen” indeed.

Also (and this is not just you): I’m pretty surprised at the number of people who want to use the eventuality of his being noncontagious (which let’s just assume for now) to defend the decisions he made when he did not know – could not have known – he was noncontagious. It’s like defending a guy playing Russian roulette while pointing the gun at other people, so long as no one actually got shot.

AFAIC, the CDC and doctors could today say, “Oopsie! Turns out he just had the common cold! Our bad!” and that would in no way excuse, explain, or defend the actions he took with the information he had at the time.

Ok, so what matters in judging Speaker’s conduct is what he knew at the time, right?

[Kokopilau]

[QUOTE=brazil84]
Umm, nothing there says he was to be quarantined. Just to avoid travel.
[/QUOTE]

“initiated conversations about the need for isolation”

And you haven’t provided the name of the doctor who gave this advice.

It hasn’t been released directly, as far as I know, though we know Dr. Kim of the CDC did talk to Speaker by phone when Speaker was in Rome.

So you admit he never was told that he had become more contagious?

“You need to be isolated from other people” means “you may infect other people” means “because you’re contagious.”

[brazil84]

[QUOTE=Jodi]

The CDC says “do not fly,” you DON’T FUCKING FLY. End of story. If you have managed to strand your ass in a foreign country because you didn’t wait to find out the details of your diagnosis – knowing there was at least the possiblility that it is XDR-TB – then you stay in that country until things can be worked out, but you DON’T FUCKING FLY. Because the freaking CENTER FOR DISEASE CONTROL told you not to.
[/quote]

So if the CDC had told him to chug some drano, and he refused, then he’s an asshole?

[Kokopilau]

[QUOTE=brazil84]
So if the CDC had told him to chug some drano, and he refused, then he’s an asshole?
[/QUOTE]

Strawman. They never told him to do anything to himself that would cause him direct harm.

Try again.

[brazil84]

[QUOTE=Kokopilau]
“initiated conversations about the need for isolation”
[/quote]

That’s not the same thing as being told to be quarantined. Nice try though.

It hasn’t been released directly, as far as I know, though we know Dr. Kim of the CDC did talk to Speaker by phone when Speaker was in Rome.

So you are assuming it was a doctor’s advice, no?

“You need to be isolated from other people” means “you may infect other people” means “because you’re contagious.”

Ummm, they didn’t even tell him he needed to be quarantined. They simply initiated conversations about it. Whatever that means. Probably it’s like preparing to send a plane.

[Kokopilau]

[QUOTE=brazil84]
That’s not the same thing as being told to be quarantined. Nice try though.

[/QUOTE]

You’re funny. Stupid as a sack of hammers, but funny.

[brazil84]

[QUOTE=Kokopilau]
Strawman. They never told him to do anything to himself that would cause him direct harm.
[/quote]

He felt it would be harmful to him to turn himself in to the Italian authorities, as opposed to return to the US.

Anyway, Jodi’s argument seems to be that you obey the CDC or you’re an asshole.

[brazil84]

[QUOTE=Kokopilau]
You’re funny.
[/quote]

Funny and, more importantly, correct.

Stupid as a sack of hammers, but funny.

More childish retorts won’t advance your argument.

[Kokopilau]

[QUOTE=brazil84]
He felt it would be harmful to him to turn himself in to the Italian authorities, as opposed to return to the US.
[/QUOTE]

He had neither the knowledge, the training, nor the experience to make that determination.

Anyway, Jodi’s argument seems to be that you obey the CDC or you’re an asshole.

When you know you have a really fatal, drug-resistant, and potentially-contagious disease, it sure does.

[Kokopilau]

[QUOTE=brazil84]
Funny and, more importantly, correct.

More childish retorts won’t advance your argument.
[/QUOTE]

So, when a medical doctor talking about the disease you know you have says “you should think about going into isolation”, you would totally discount the very IDEA that they could possibly be talking about quarantine?

You’re either a liar, or a moron. Or both.

[brazil84]

[QUOTE=Kokopilau]
So, when a medical doctor talking about the disease you know you have says “you should think about going into isolation”, you would totally discount the very IDEA that they could possibly be talking about quarantine?
[/quote]

What’s the name of this medical doctor? Where did he or she go to medical school? And cite for this doctor saying “you should think about going into isolation”

[brazil84]

[QUOTE=Kokopilau]
He had neither the knowledge, the training, nor the experience to make that determination.
[/quote]

But he was apparently told he needed to get back to the US.

When you know you have a really fatal, drug-resistant, and potentially-contagious disease, it sure does.

Ok, so if CDC had told him to chug some draino, and he disobeyed, then he’s an asshole.