Is the Bible pretty much fatally flawed?

[kanicbird]

cosmosdan I believe at least part of you is seeking, but another part is leaning on your own understanding. Trying to use logical arguments to understand God, to define aspects of Him or His plan in human understanding. Trying to fit God in a ‘box’ or structure. God says this won’t work.

In my experience God’s ways are exactly opposite the worlds. God sent His Son to save the world, many were expecting a great mighty invincible King of Kings to conquer the world. God sent his son born in a small town in a animal stall to die a lowly death.

In my experience you have to question everything you have been taught. We have been taught and made to believe many untruths - and I’m talking about science also in this. Believing these untruths cause much pain.

Using the color of the sky analogy, which is only a analogy, lets say God made the sky blue and orange. Some people are made to see only the blue, others to see only the orange others to see both colors. The ones who see both colors find it advantageous to state they only see the blue, and some eventually believe this themselves forgetting the orange, while still having the advantage of what the orange sky reveals.

The ones who only see only the blue are OK with this, but miss out some opportunities that the orange sky points out. They wonder why they don’t get the opportunities that others have, which are the ones that see both colors.

The ones who see only the orange are subject to them being taught that the sky is blue, some of them submit and believe that the sky is blue, living in darkness, and anything they see is discredited as the blue see’ers don’t see it, plus the b&o seerers have learned it is a advantage to discredit it, to put these people down. Some refuse to submit however, and perhaps treated with drugs to have them not only submit but thank the oppressors for helping them believe the sky is blue.

It is my experiences as one starts to break away and start questioning authority, start using their minds and no longer living in realities taught by others, they will meet very hard opposition, who will put you down, isolate you, etc. Most people at this point will give in and submit once again. But for those seeking God, God strengthens them, so the attacks against them can’t cause them to submit.

Once that transition is made, it is like blinders have been removed and you can see both, and see the ‘warfare’ that was going on how the o&b see’ers have used their advantage to horribly oppress others to their own advantage (even if doing so was not intentional but a learned behavior).

In one’s seeking God, God will eventually give you people who you will trust, then they will fall away for a time, eventually it will IMHO be you and the Word against the world. The Word will define the truth, while everyone will tell you your wrong, after this point you have broken free. After this where you go the truth of God will be used to reveal the truth, and freeing others.

My advice is to seek the Lord, learn His ways and to ignore the teachings of the world. Don’t take things that you are told as truth, even if highly respected scientists or whatever, say so, but to find out for yourself, or just categorize it as a worldly teaching and not a truth of God.

Wouldn’t you agree there would be no contradiction in divine truth?

Yes, but please at this point don’t try to understand it, you know the above has to be true, if there is a God, then God’s truth can’t contradict itself, put your trust in God, not your own understanding.

So, if two people are looking at the same sky in the same location at the same time I’d expect their description to be pretty similar.

Don’t expect this at all, question everything you have been taught, much of it is wrong.

That assumes the person acknowledges their mistake and their imperfection correct? We must be willing to acknowledge where we are wrong and willing to be led, right?

Again you are trying to define God. This is not how it works, God may have someone believing a error as He needs that for some purpose. But the part of it is that person, if truly a believer and follower of Jesus is 100% blameless and declared sinless by God, His sins will never be used against him. Once someone reaches this point God will move heaven and earth to justify all His children. That is a work of God.

There’s a good theological analogy called The Blind Men and the Elephant They all perceive something partially true but incomplete because of their limited perception. Now imagine several of these men insisting their own limited perception was the only truth and the others must be wrong since they don’t agree. Organized religion compounds the problem by worshiping tradition.

Organized religion is part of the problem, as my analogy above o&b see’ers will be the ones in authority in that religion. The basic goal is to think for yourself, and to free our minds we need God’s strength. So don’t worry about disagreements, God’s Word states so, just follow Him and trust in Him, and He will reveal what He wants you to know.

If God judges the inner person then religious labels don’t matter at all.

True, IMHO God judges the heart of a person by this single commandment, Love the Lord your God with all your heart, mind and strength. Structures of religion are of man, not God.

[Czarcasm]

@kanicbird

cosmosdan I believe at least part of you is seeking, but another part is leaning on your own understanding. Trying to use logical arguments to understand God, to define aspects of Him or His plan in human understanding. Trying to fit God in a ‘box’ or structure. God says this won’t work.

In my experience God’s ways are exactly opposite the worlds. God sent His Son to save the world, many were expecting a great mighty invincible King of Kings to conquer the world. God sent his son born in a small town in a animal stall to die a lowly death.

In my experience you have to question everything you have been taught. We have been taught and made to believe many untruths - and I’m talking about science also in this. Believing these untruths cause much pain.

Using the color of the sky analogy, which is only a analogy, lets say God made the sky blue and orange. Some people are made to see only the blue, others to see only the orange others to see both colors. The ones who see both colors find it advantageous to state they only see the blue, and some eventually believe this themselves forgetting the orange, while still having the advantage of what the orange sky reveals.

The ones who only see only the blue are OK with this, but miss out some opportunities that the orange sky points out. They wonder why they don’t get the opportunities that others have, which are the ones that see both colors.

The ones who see only the orange are subject to them being taught that the sky is blue, some of them submit and believe that the sky is blue, living in darkness, and anything they see is discredited as the blue see’ers don’t see it, plus the b&o seerers have learned it is a advantage to discredit it, to put these people down. Some refuse to submit however, and perhaps treated with drugs to have them not only submit but thank the oppressors for helping them believe the sky is blue.

It is my experiences as one starts to break away and start questioning authority, start using their minds and no longer living in realities taught by others, they will meet very hard opposition, who will put you down, isolate you, etc. Most people at this point will give in and submit once again. But for those seeking God, God strengthens them, so the attacks against them can’t cause them to submit.

Once that transition is made, it is like blinders have been removed and you can see both, and see the ‘warfare’ that was going on how the o&b see’ers have used their advantage to horribly oppress others to their own advantage (even if doing so was not intentional but a learned behavior).

In one’s seeking God, God will eventually give you people who you will trust, then they will fall away for a time, eventually it will IMHO be you and the Word against the world. The Word will define the truth, while everyone will tell you your wrong, after this point you have broken free. After this where you go the truth of God will be used to reveal the truth, and freeing others.

My advice is to seek the Lord, learn His ways and to ignore the teachings of the world. Don’t take things that you are told as truth, even if highly respected scientists or whatever, say so, but to find out for yourself, or just categorize it as a worldly teaching and not a truth of God.

Yes, but please at this point don’t try to understand it, you know the above has to be true, if there is a God, then God’s truth can’t contradict itself, put your trust in God, not your own understanding.

Don’t expect this at all, question everything you have been taught, much of it is wrong.

Again you are trying to define God. This is not how it works, God may have someone believing a error as He needs that for some purpose. But the part of it is that person, if truly a believer and follower of Jesus is 100% blameless and declared sinless by God, His sins will never be used against him. Once someone reaches this point God will move heaven and earth to justify all His children. That is a work of God.

Organized religion is part of the problem, as my analogy above o&b see’ers will be the ones in authority in that religion. The basic goal is to think for yourself, and to free our minds we need God’s strength. So don’t worry about disagreements, God’s Word states so, just follow Him and trust in Him, and He will reveal what He wants you to know.

True, God judges the heart of a person by this single commandment, Love the Lord your God with all your heart, mind and strength. Structures of religion are of man, not God.

Could we please get back to the subject at hand? If you want to discuss the aspects of your sect, please start another thread.

[Polycarp]

Czar, I think your premise depends a great deal on what you expect to get out of it. As a compilation of an enduring and influential culture’s history and legends, it’s invaluable. As an infallible World’s Greatest Authoitative Source About Everything, it frankly sucks. (Besides, Zotti says that Cecil has that phrase trademarked ;)) As a means of figuring out what it means to follow in Jesus’s footsteps, it’s pretty good – remembering that cultural accretions are all over the place, that Paul was formerly a Pharisee, a thoroughgoing legalist, and that the Gospels are intentionally polemic, with the purpose of elucidating Jesus’s life and teachings to new and potential converts, and so on.

One key point for me has always been that the Bible is, for all its naivete about miracles and supernatural hoo-ha, very realistic about human nature. You know how human nature is such that we take our heroes and turn them into plaster saints? And then a debunker comes along and shows us how the guy really wasn’t all that perfect? Well, the real saints weren’t plaster, and they weren’t perfect-- they did and said stupid things, and the Bible paints them as just that. From Abraham to Peter, people have moments of cowardice; lust leads people astray from David to Herod. In the Bible you get pictures of people, “warts and all” and not hagiography.

And for me at least, it’s the story of Man’s evolving conception of who God is. It doesn’t bother me that somebody in Exodus times claims He wants genocide committed on the Amelekites – because that’s what they thought at the time, not necessarily what He intended. I no more have to believe God smote the So-and-So-ites with various natural disasters for their sins than I need to believe Jerry Falwell’s notorious comment about who caused 9/11 to happen.

[kanicbird]

@Polycarp

Czar, I think your premise depends a great deal on what you expect to get out of it. As a compilation of an enduring and influential culture’s history and legends, it’s invaluable. As an infallible World’s Greatest Authoitative Source About Everything, it frankly sucks…
.

For learning about worldly teachings it does suck, but to find out the truth there is nothing that can do more. It is useful for breaking free of the lies of the world.

[RitterSport]

@Polycarp

And for me at least, it’s the story of Man’s evolving conception of who God is. It doesn’t bother me that somebody in Exodus times claims He wants genocide committed on the Amelekites – because that’s what they thought at the time, not necessarily what He intended. I no more have to believe God smote the So-and-So-ites with various natural disasters for their sins than I need to believe Jerry Falwell’s notorious comment about who caused 9/11 to happen.

But, that makes it no different than any other compilation of myths. I’m not Czarcasm, but my guess is that he wasn’t saying it’s worthless as literature or as myth, but that it’s worthless as any kind of guide to live by. At least, no more worthwhile than other stories that have morals (say, Aesop’s fables), certainly worthless as a starting point for a legislature.

It seems to me that it’s so self-contradictory (in some places) and so vague (in other places) that you only get from the Bible what you bring to it. If you’re anti-gay, you find the proof from the Bible that God hates gays. If you’re not, you find proof that God loves everyone. Divorce is OK. No, it’s not OK. Slavery’s just fine. No, it’s not.

Other than snippets here and there (and such snippets can be found in any religious text, and many other places), it seems to be worthless as a moral guide, since you only get from it what you bring to it. You can be loving or hateful, pious or [whatever the opposite is – casual], bigoted or not, and feel fully justified in your position based on the Bible. What good is that?

[cosmosdan]

@ch4rl3s

I stopped reading kanicbird’s posts 3 or 4 in, but I’m still trying to understand what it is you’re trying to tell him.

Is there a contradiction in the fact that we still teach Newtonian physics to grade schoolers? There’s an apparent contradiction in that it has been superceded by relativity and quantum mechanics. So, why don’t we drop grade schoolers straight into quantum mechanics?

So, can we agree that there is a value in teaching someone something that isn’t strictly true, but gives them the basis for understanding greater truths?

And then we have students coming out of grade school believing Newtonian physics, and students coming out of university believing quantum mechanics. But this isn’t a contradiction, is it? Even though two different people could be taught two different ‘truths’ from the same school system.

But some people never get past the level of understanding for Newtonian physics, (or even to that level of understanding.)

I don’t want to discuss the details of an analogy unless it relates to the point. The problem as I see it is** KB** was avoiding the actual point with a discussion about different perspective in his usual circular fashion.
So, yes I understand that people are on different levels. The Bible talks about people being spiritual children only ready for milk rather than solid food and Jesus told the apostles before he died that there was more for them to learn that they weren’t ready for. That’s not the point. KB claims people are taught divine truth by the HS. and to others without this special gift, it seems like nonsense and contradiction but it really isn’t. I pointed out that even those who make this claim and use it to avoid making sense often contradict each other on what the divine truth is and what the Holy Spirit {which we assume would be perfect} is teaching.

So, If one teacher claimed and the HS said the world is round and another claimed the HS said the world is flat that would probably be a contradiction not based on different perspectives wouldn’t you say?

I’m just trying to find a way around the “without the HS you just can’t understand” dodge" if there is one.

Well, I’d agree with this. A person who has only had Newtonian physics classes hears about quantum mechanics and tries to pass the idea on to someone else. I wouldn’t be surprised if he gets it wrong.

But if he has the HS to expand his understanding he ought to get it right or at least have the sense to say, “I don’t really understand it yet”

I didn’t see that assumption. I mean, I agree that people should admit their mistakes, but I don’t see anything that says someone needs to do that before God could use that mistake for the good.

Most of the time they do. You have to admit you’re impatient, or stubborn, or judgmental before you can begin the steps to correct that part of your personality. If we believe the truth will set us free then a commitment to seeking and embracing the truth is in order. We have to place the truth over man’s tradition and the opinions and and approval of our particular group.

If people cling to a certain false belief because their pastor says so and all their group says it’s true how can they be taught by the HS about the falsehood until they at least entertain the thought they and their friends may be wrong. When they are indoctrinated to believe the Bible is the literal word of God and interpretation X is not just one possible interpretation but actually God’s will, it can be a real challenge to shake that loose.

I try not to think my belief is the only right one, but I don’t always manage. Just a few weeks ago, I was in a conversation about math on this board. And I was so arrogantly assured of the correctness of my conclusion, that I discounted the possibility that the people I was debating with were coming from a valid assumption. I was completely convinced that mathematicians didn’t work under their conclusions. When I realized my mistake, it shook my world view. I spent a couple hours agonizing over the possibility that I had been completely wrong all along. Then I realized I needed to see what I could prove from this new starting point, and I spent several more hours doing that. Eventually I proved to myself that their starting point wasn’t wrong, it just didn’t prove what they thought it did. Their starting point was meaningless and reduced to mine. But, I had to apologize, and then try to show them what their starting assumption actually proved. Strangely enough, this ended the conversation.

In discussions about religion I try to find a common point. I come from a Christian background but my beliefs have changed a lot since I started asking questions and placing an honest answer above things that were ingrained or just preferred.
After looking at several religions I find if you break things down to basic principles and don’t let terminology and get in the way a lot of religions are similar. Finding the language to get there is a real challenge and if people close their mind and just aren’t trying to understand it’s pretty much game over.

But, not everyone is as adult as you or I. Not everyone is going to admit their mistake, or even notice it in the first place. But, I don’t think it’s a mistake to believe your own conclusions are correct.

The mistake is to not hold beliefs provisionally , given their nature. I think it’s necessary to go forward based on what we believe to be true, but with wisdom and humility that tells us we still have much to learn and our beliefs will probably change. The absolutism of certain religious groups inhibits personal growth and the growth of society in general IMHO. We can share our ideas on our spiritual beliefs , claim our right to walk our own path, without making the mistake of holding them as absolute as the law of gravity. Believe me , I know people who won’t be shaken and I’m okay with letting them find their own way, but I won’t complacently stand by while they preach their mistakes as if it’s God’s plan.

I agree. But this is the same analogy as kanicbird’s “what color is the sky.” And they are in the position I was in. Obviously, just because they don’t agree, and just because they aren’t adult enough to admit the other might be right, doesn’t mean they don’t separately have some part of the truth, or that it isn’t the same truth they’re talking about.

But there’s still a mistake present. The one of the closed mind. That’s the one I’m addressing. I’m also addressing the flimsy dodge of “if you ain’t got the spirit you just won’t understand” If there is a HS that teaches the truth then the truth of our limited understanding should be included. I also seriously object to beliefs based on tradition that are called divine truth such as, the Bible {or any book} is the final authoritative compilation of God’s word. There just isn’t any basis for that other than tradition. Doctrine is formed by stressing certain passages while downplaying or rationalizing others. Beliefs about Jesus vary for that reason. Even if you’re a believer,there’s nothing in the Bible itself to indicate it was ever God’s plan for this one compilation of writings to be placed on such a pedestal.

Personally, I think it’s possible we’re trying to say much the same thing. (And in this one instance, something similar to what kanicbird is saying.) I just can’t quite see for sure what you’re trying to say. What is the point you’re trying to make to kanicbird?

The point is that even if we allow for some divine guidance and understanding through the HS we have to explain why those who believe in it and insist they have it can’t agree. The explanation seems to be that even with divine guidance people still have their own perspective on what that guidance means and what the HS is saying. That indicates to me the a clear possibility that while they may have some insight, they may also be wrong in their conclusions. It indicates that the HS doesn’t prevent people from holding on to false impressions and concepts or mistaking their personal preference for divine truth. IMO that reveals the “if you ain’t got the spirit you can’t understand” dodge for the baseless justification it is.
Evidently, even with the HS, we’re forced to acknowledge man’s influence and will.

The question for believers would be, are the things I’ve been taught really the truth or just tradition? Is this feeling I have about the HS divine guidance and real insight or just personal preference and peer pressure? Getting someone to ask the questions and step away from such absolutism would be a positive thing IMO.

[begbert2]

@kanicbird

For learning about worldly teachings it does suck, but to find out the truth there is nothing that can do more. It is useful for breaking free of the lies of the world.

It’s my understanding that truths don’t really contradict one another. Ever.

Now, it is the case that occasionally truths seem to contradict one another, such as with Newtonian Physics and quantum mechanics, or an orange sky and a blue sky, but with things that are actually true, there are ways to explain how the true things actually work together. Newtonian physics admits that it fails to account for or is incorrect for certain situations, which allows quantum mechanics to slot in without contradiction. It is explained that the skies observed were at different time, places, or facing different directions, which removes the contradictions.

The “truths” distilled and presented by the religious, however, are terrible at this. They contradict overtly all the time. And worse yet, no religious people at any level are able to reconcile all the contradictions into a single, true, whole. If they actually were at different levels of truth, the people at lower levels could explain how their truths include and work with the ‘lower level’ truths, much the same way the fifth grader can explain why their knowledge doesn’t contradict that of the first grader, and the twelfth grader could explain how their knowledge fits with the sixth and first graders.

The religious are not able to do this, leading us to draw the conclusion that not all the stuff they’re saying is the Truth at all. In fact it seems clear that at least 99% of them are saying things that are simply not true at least some of the time, and quite possibly a lot of the time.

Of course, the more contradictions a specific person’s beliefs have, the more likely they are to be untrue. I notice that you tried rather ineffectively to dodge answering the question of how did Judas’s physical body meet it’s end. A true belief system wouldn’t fail to be able to explain such things without contradiction.

And a true belief system would not be unable to reconcile itself with anything else that we know is true. Like science. When you have to declare that science is lies, you know you’re in a fatally weak position. Any true philosophy will be able to explain everything we observe without contradiction, which includes all of science.

[cosmosdan]

@RitterSport

But, that makes it no different than any other compilation of myths. I’m not Czarcasm, but my guess is that he wasn’t saying it’s worthless as literature or as myth, but that it’s worthless as any kind of guide to live by. At least, no more worthwhile than other stories that have morals (say, Aesop’s fables), certainly worthless as a starting point for a legislature.

It seems to me that it’s so self-contradictory (in some places) and so vague (in other places) that you only get from the Bible what you bring to it. If you’re anti-gay, you find the proof from the Bible that God hates gays. If you’re not, you find proof that God loves everyone. Divorce is OK. No, it’s not OK. Slavery’s just fine. No, it’s not.

Other than snippets here and there (and such snippets can be found in any religious text, and many other places), it seems to be worthless as a moral guide, since you only get from it what you bring to it. You can be loving or hateful, pious or [whatever the opposite is – casual], bigoted or not, and feel fully justified in your position based on the Bible. What good is that?

Good points. I think it’s in man’s nature at some point in his development to look for some external authority. I think the Bible as well as other material is good as food for thought when people are looking for direction but giving it and those who interpret it authority is a mistake. The journey of morals and character takes place within. Whatever external influences we find valuable are incidental. Ultimately, individuals and societies must take responsibility for their actions.

[cosmosdan]

@Polycarp

Czar, I think your premise depends a great deal on what you expect to get out of it. As a compilation of an enduring and influential culture’s history and legends, it’s invaluable. As an infallible World’s Greatest Authoitative Source About Everything, it frankly sucks. (Besides, Zotti says that Cecil has that phrase trademarked ;)) As a means of figuring out what it means to follow in Jesus’s footsteps, it’s pretty good – remembering that cultural accretions are all over the place, that Paul was formerly a Pharisee, a thoroughgoing legalist, and that the Gospels are intentionally polemic, with the purpose of elucidating Jesus’s life and teachings to new and potential converts, and so on.

One key point for me has always been that the Bible is, for all its naivete about miracles and supernatural hoo-ha, very realistic about human nature. You know how human nature is such that we take our heroes and turn them into plaster saints? And then a debunker comes along and shows us how the guy really wasn’t all that perfect? Well, the real saints weren’t plaster, and they weren’t perfect-- they did and said stupid things, and the Bible paints them as just that. From Abraham to Peter, people have moments of cowardice; lust leads people astray from David to Herod. In the Bible you get pictures of people, “warts and all” and not hagiography.

And for me at least, it’s the story of Man’s evolving conception of who God is. It doesn’t bother me that somebody in Exodus times claims He wants genocide committed on the Amelekites – because that’s what they thought at the time, not necessarily what He intended. I no more have to believe God smote the So-and-So-ites with various natural disasters for their sins than I need to believe Jerry Falwell’s notorious comment about who caused 9/11 to happen.

I really appreciate this post Poly. This and the one by** RitterSport** are examples of concepts that at first glance, might seem to contradict, but actually don’t. IMO the Bible as well as other literature is a tool that can be used for personal growth, but like most tools, it can be used for destructively as well as constructively. It depends on the intent of the person using it. So, does that make the tool flawed? Not IMO.

[begbert2]

@cosmosdan

I really appreciate this post Poly. This and the one by** RitterSport** are examples of concepts that at first glance, might seem to contradict, but actually don’t. IMO the Bible as well as other literature is a tool that can be used for personal growth, but like most tools, it can be used for destructively as well as constructively. It depends on the intent of the person using it. So, does that make the tool flawed? Not IMO.

It also depends on the methods of the person using it - a person with the best of intentions can use the bible to build up a nice little personal certainty in the undeniable correctness of their own cherry-picked opinions, and then develop the opinion that they are morally obligated to beat other people about the head and shoulders with their “knowledge” and “truth”.

[cosmosdan]

@kanicbird

cosmosdan I believe at least part of you is seeking, but another part is leaning on your own understanding. Trying to use logical arguments to understand God, to define aspects of Him or His plan in human understanding. Trying to fit God in a ‘box’ or structure. God says this won’t work.

I am definitely **not ** trying to fit God in a box. I do think that logic, intellect and reason are gifts we are intended to use rather than abandon. At the same time we acknowledge our limited understanding and that we have much left to learn. IMHO it is those who claim to know God’s will and plan in absolute terms that are trying to put God in a box and limit something they cannot comprehend with boundaries they can understand and express.

<snip>

In my experience you have to question everything you have been taught. We have been taught and made to believe many untruths - and I’m talking about science also in this. Believing these untruths cause much pain.

Unfortunately both believers and non believers are are guilty of believing things in absolute terms when they should allow for some margin of error. Science doesn’t have all the answers but ignoring clear consistent evidence for the sake of religious tradition strikes me as holding the traditions of men above seeking the truth. Remember;
“John 4:24 God is spirit, and his worshipers must worship in spirit and in truth.”
and
“John 8:32 Then you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.”

Science can at times be mistaken or incomplete but because it holds truth as the ultimate goal it contains the means to correct itself. Religion and our personal spirituality needs that same principle and be willing to embrace objective evidence in it’s dedication to the truth .

Using the color of the sky analogy, which is only a analogy, lets say God made the sky blue and orange.

<snip>
I think you overdid the analogy a wee bit. The point IMHO is having the wisdom and humility to acknowledge our understanding is incomplete and possibly mistaken because of the influences of society and man. Claiming the influence of the HS clearly doesn’t make someone exempt from being mistaken.

It is my experiences as one starts to break away and start questioning authority, start using their minds and no longer living in realities taught by others, they will meet very hard opposition, who will put you down, isolate you, etc. Most people at this point will give in and submit once again. But for those seeking God, God strengthens them, so the attacks against them can’t cause them to submit.

Now you want them to start using their minds? I thought that was a no no. I clearly agree with questioning authority. Coming from a Christian background I got here by doing exactly that and being willing to set aside tradition when the evidence and my heart and mind said it didn’t make sense. I think each person must take full responsibility for their own journey and not surrender it to any authority figure.

In one’s seeking God, God will eventually give you people who you will trust, then they will fall away for a time, eventually it will IMHO be you and the Word against the world. The Word will define the truth, while everyone will tell you your wrong, after this point you have broken free. After this where you go the truth of God will be used to reveal the truth, and freeing others.

It depends on what you consider The Word. IMO if if someone really has faith that there is a guiding spirit or higher consciousness that we can connect with we don’t don’t have to place any written words in an inappropriate place of authority. All mankind has equal access but our level of commitment and areas of interest varies. I repeat, there’s nothing within the written word we call the Bible to indicate it was ever God’s plan that we place this particular compilation of writings in the place of authority that some Christians have placed it. I think it’s a huge mistake to do so.
<snip>

Yes, but please at this point don’t try to understand it, you know the above has to be true, if there is a God, then God’s truth can’t contradict itself, put your trust in God, not your own understanding.

I think we are called to try and understand and seek understanding, while we seek truth. We can remember that our understanding has limits but as you said earlier, still use our minds.

Don’t expect this at all, question everything you have been taught, much of it is wrong.

Um,… questioning is fine but at some point we have to decide what we believe and go forward based on that. We can continue to learn and refine and correct our beliefs as new information and experience presents itself.

Again you are trying to define God. This is not how it works, God may have someone believing a error as He needs that for some purpose. But the part of it is that person, if truly a believer and follower of Jesus is 100% blameless and declared sinless by God, His sins will never be used against him. Once someone reaches this point God will move heaven and earth to justify all His children. That is a work of God.

No I’m not trying to define God. I’m saying we have to be willing to let go of false beliefs even if we label them divine guidance.
<snip>
okay, now I’d like to apologize to Czarcasm for being sidetracked and get back on topic.

[cosmosdan]

@begbert2

It also depends on the methods of the person using it - a person with the best of intentions can use the bible to build up a nice little personal certainty in the undeniable correctness of their own cherry-picked opinions, and then develop the opinion that they are morally obligated to beat other people about the head and shoulders with their “knowledge” and “truth”.

I’d question whether that type of action is the “best” of intentions but I get your point. That’s why I stress the humility of knowing we may be wrong and taking personal responsibility for whatever choices we make.

If we justify actions based on some personal need to feel more right than someone else, or an unwillingness to really question our own motives and beliefs then we might call that good intentions but it’s likely not.

trying to be thread relevant let me say, this is a good reason why giving passages in a 2000 year old book too much authority is a baaaadddd idea. A fatal flaw if you will.

[RitterSport]

It looks like begbert2, cosmosdan, Czarcasm, and I basically agree. Polycarp, as one of the most thoughtful Christians on the board, care to comment? (Or, if I’m off in the wrong direction, can you set me straight, Czarcasm?)

[kanicbird]

@cosmosdan

So, If one teacher claimed and the HS said the world is round and another claimed the HS said the world is flat that would probably be a contradiction not based on different perspectives wouldn’t you say?

It would be a different perspective, that that’s part of the point of the Bible. The apparent contradictions are there for a reason (every part is there for a exact reason), and part of that reason IMHO is to expand the mind beyond what we observe, our worldly teachings, It is a book that allows the understanding of a much bigger and complex world that man can observe on his own. It opens up understanding of other dimensions and teaches wisdom that only can come from that level of understanding.

[begbert2]

@kanicbird

It would be a different perspective, that that’s part of the point of the Bible. The apparent contradictions are there for a reason (every part is there for a exact reason), and part of that reason IMHO is to expand the mind beyond what we observe, our worldly teachings, It is a book that allows the understanding of a much bigger and complex world that man can observe on his own. It opens up understanding of other dimensions and teaches wisdom that only can come from that level of understanding.

It would be a different perspective that could not possibly be true. I will happily concede that the bible may be written in places with the deliberate purpose of getting people to believe things that are not true, though.

But any book that fails to open up the mind even far enough to understand and include the complexity of man-observable science, certainly doesn’t open up the mind enough to understand more complex systems. Smaller, simpler, less complex, less dimensional, unwise, untrue systems, perhaps…

Remember - bigger truths build on top of smaller truths. They don’t contradict them.

[kanicbird]

@begbert2

It would be a different perspective that could not possibly be true.

Again lean not on your own understanding - with God a flat and round world coexisting very well be true.

I will happily concede that the bible may be written in places with the deliberate purpose of getting people to believe things that are not true, though.

It was written to get people to believe what is true, by exposing lies that man calls facts.

But any book that fails to open up the mind even far enough to understand and include the complexity of man-observable science, certainly doesn’t open up the mind enough to understand more complex systems. Smaller, simpler, less complex, less dimensional, unwise, untrue systems, perhaps…

The world that is revealed by the Word is far more complex and far more dimensional then anything man has ever come up with. It is a book that exists on our 3d world that teaches us to see other dimensions.

Remember - bigger truths build on top of smaller truths. They don’t contradict them.

That applies for facts that man can determine, but truth is from God and well beyond our facts, He lets us know the truths as He determines, not by the formula you stated.

[cosmosdan]

@kanicbird

It would be a different perspective, that that’s part of the point of the Bible. The apparent contradictions are there for a reason (every part is there for a exact reason), and part of that reason IMHO is to expand the mind beyond what we observe, our worldly teachings, It is a book that allows the understanding of a much bigger and complex world that man can observe on his own. It opens up understanding of other dimensions and teaches wisdom that only can come from that level of understanding.

I thought we understood with the help of the Holy Spirit? As I said, giving too much authority to a book written, copied,sorted, selected and translated by other men centuries ago seems like a baaaddd idea to me. You said organized religion is part of the problem but the very creation and compilation of the Bible was done by religion trying to control what people were taught to believe. I’ve studied the Bible and I say without reservation there’s nothing in there to support it’s iconic status was ever part of God’s plan.

Regardless of how you try to spin it at some point contradictions cannot be reconciled. If one Christian reads the Bible and believes in the guidance of the HS and believes homosexuality is perfectly acceptable before God while another says it’s a sin and an abomination it’s hard to say they’re both right in their own way. If one Christian believes the Bible is historical and should be considered the inerrant word of God while another says it’s allegory and was never intended to be literal someone has got to be mistaken.

In other words if the sky is indeed blue and orange those that claim it is only blue or only orange have closed their minds and hearts to the truth. Those that claim its black have placed their own preference, their own desire to see things a certain way, above any dedication they claim to have concerning the truth.

That is IMHO is a fatal flaw. {once again trying to tie this post to the OP}

[kanicbird]

@cosmosdan

That is IMHO is a fatal flaw. {once again trying to tie this post to the OP}

OK, that last post was helpful, yes I now agree the Bible is fatally flawed and it is done so by design, as we, as humans, can not understand it, trying to understand it in ourselves will lead to death. That is exactly what God wants, us to give up trying to make sense of something that is incomprehensible, and just come to God and say I can’t understand it, I need you.

[Attack_from_the_3rd_dimension]

@kanicbird

OK, that last post was helpful, yes I now agree the Bible is fatally flawed and it is done so by design, as we, as humans, can not understand it, trying to understand it in ourselves will lead to death. That is exactly what God wants, us to give up trying to make sense of something that is incomprehensible, and just come to God and say I can’t understand it, I need you.

Whoa. So god (not Baal, the other one) really makes an effort to lie to us. This explains all those damn fossils he keeps hiding.

[kanicbird]

@Attack_from_the_3rd_dimension

Whoa. So god (not Baal, the other one) really makes an effort to lie to us. This explains all those damn fossils he keeps hiding.

No, it is fatally flawed because it is absolute truth, which is far above humans’ ability to understand, again needed God’s help.

It is designed in part IMHO to have the very question the OP asked and others like it. If it is so fatally flawed why do so many people hold it so highly - with some of those people being very intelligent and insightful? Again not all people, but some, how can they regard this as so true and abandon what others hold so highly - that being worldly knowledge?