This is the fundamental paradox of ID arguments, isn’t it - they want to have their cake and eat it too - on the one hand, point out things like the watch being designed by* contrasting* them with the natural surroundings, then turning around and saying “Oh no, that natural surroundings? Designed too!”
But that has nothing to do with your original premise which was:
I believe the idea that the universe has an intelligent creator makes more sense than not having an intelligent creator. If you look at matter’s basic building block, the atom, and observe all of its magnificent complexity, structure and functionality, it surely makes “more sense” that it was designed.
If it makes more sense to you that the universe has an intelligent creator, how does it make sense to you that He doesn’t need one by merely claiming "In a non-physical world without space/time/matter, this constraint may not exist.? How does it make sense to you that complex things need to be designed, but this instinct of yours vanishes once being outside of space and time is proposed?
It seems your giving God’s complexity a free pass from having being created just by claiming “things may be different somewhere else that’s not physical”, which is nonsensical to begin with.
And “Complexity requires a designer in the known physical world.” is false. Ever grow crystals when you were a kid? You can see spectacular complex structures form without intelligent guidance before your very eyes! Even complex structures in bacteria have been witnessed to evolve right here, “in the known physical world.”
You say you fluttered between atheism and agnosticism for years. Do you accept that evolution happens? If so, you realize that complexity doesn’t require a designer, right?
I think we must anchor ourself today, and work back.
I look evidence of a Higher Power at work in our world, currently.
If one observes the miraculous, then what is the Higher Power doing?
It seems senses must be used, and common sense conclusions drawn.
A designer would have to be even more complex than that which He designs. By your own rationale, this is evidence that He needs a designer and so on. Merely claiming that you accept that complex things need a designer on this plane of existence but things may work differently on another one makes zero sense.
Kindly define “miraculous.” Is childbirth a miracle, or the result of purely natural processes? How about the survival of the persons aboard the plane that crashed in the Hudson the other day?
What evidence?
I haven’t observed any miracles and I don’t accept that others have merely because they make claims. A little to coincidental that miracles have everything in common with the religion and beliefs of those making the claims. Not too many Muslims claiming they saw the Virgin Mary in their cornflakes.
Miraculous, is when an event occurs that makes no sense, but happens anyway.
Spontaneous remission of disease, stands out.
A minor one that caught my attention was the day I was going to hit a person from behind with a hammer, with every intention of burying said hammer, when all my anger was gone. I just stood there with a dumb look on my face, and the target never knew how close he was to death.
That has never happened to me before, or since. Absolute emotional shutdown, as if it tripped a breaker.
Really odd stuff happens, from time to time. Why?
I must say, the plane ride in the Hudson would increase one’s heart rate. Child birth is too normal, so to speak.
One is all it takes. Corn flakes, not with standing. Some really odd events happen, occasionally.
The really crushing question is, why not more often? That really bites.
It is like the bumper sticker I saw on the way home. “Nothing fails faster, than prayer.”
When it makes no sense, or makes no sense based on our unlimited understanding? It used to make no sense to most that rain puddles dried up and new water fell from the sky, but now with more understanding of how this cycle actually works, it makes sense.
My cuts heal all by themselves; it makes sense that diseases sometimes get healed by the body also.
No miracle there, but you need to get some psychiatric help before you end up hurting someone.
You would think that odd stuff would happen without a god, wouldn’t you? There should be statistical anomalies and things we don’t understand without invisible beings.
So?
Yup.
Yes, cornflakes withstanding. Unless you thing every face seen in the cloud is a miracle.
Why should anything happen more often?
Highlander 2.
Disagree. Once a certain level of sophistication has been reached (and we’re beginning to approach that level ourselves,) design complexity is limited only by available resources (money, manpower, raw materials, etc.) There is no reason, given a continuation of the increase in our technological sophistication, that we will find it impossible to design and construct things more complex than ourselves.
Nah, not really. Such episodes are much more common than you might think. Nearly everyone experiences a similar one at least once in their lifetime. It is NOT any kind of valid indicator of mental health to have such an experience.
Thanks for your concern. It was many years ago. The man became one of my favorite supervisors … later.
The definition of a miracle is something that violates physical laws, not something just awes you personally or something you don’t personally understand.
Huh? You live in a much more dangerous world than I do…
You do realize he didn’t actually hit anyone, right? I’m talking about thoughts, not actions.
More complex than the human brain? A very bold claim…dare I ask? Oh, go on, cite?
How do you want me to cite something which hasn’t happened yet, and probably won’t for a few hundred years?
I didn’t learn anything about electron shells until I took my AP Chemistry Class in high school, and that class wasn’t exactly popular. I didn’t learn about quantum chromodynamics until my AP Physics class in high school, and that class was even less popular. And I didn’t learn about things like wavefunctions until I did an engineering major in college. And the engineering and science majors definitely weren’t the popular ones.
My personal observations lead me to believe that there are relatively few people who actually know anything meaningful about the structure of the atom, but there are tons of people who know that the structure of the atom proves a designer. How does that work?
Why would you think that complexity requires a designer when we have countless examples all around us of extremely complex things (e.g. raccoons) that came into being without any designer?
Cite the basis on which you make this claim. It has took the universe until relatively recently to come up with the human brain, and you think we are going to top it in a lab, or something?