Is the J-C God evil?

Great Debates
21

And why somebody had to be punished, exactly? Why is a punishment necessary? Who would care whether someone who had commited some crime, let alone some minor sin, during our incredibly short live on earth, will be punished or not if we were all going to live in some paradise forever? Who would be mean and resentful enough to ask for somebody else to be tortured forever? The only explanation I can think of is that god is infinitely mean and infinitely resentful.
And why didn’t he plainly change the law? Apparently he didn’t have any issue changing the law given to the Jews (you know, fair laws like stonning people for various arbitrary reasons). Since he already have changed his mind about punishing everybody (probably he didn’t have fully realized the consequences before…oops…sorry…that’s not possible, he’s omniscient. So he changed his mind because…err…well…how could an omniscient being change his mind exactly?), he could have modified his former laws and “justice” system too.

So, I assume that since Jesus was punished instead of us, the envisionned punishment was something like dying on the cross (the pain being probably divided amongst the billions of sinners who lived on earth). If not, why didn’t god decide to sent his son burning forever in hell? That would makes sense and could be considered as a real sacrifice. But dying on a cross for a god? You must be joking. Even me wouldn’t hesitate to die on a cross on the behalf of the humanity if I was sure I would live forever happy thereafter. Millions of people gave their live (not necessarily believing there would be an afterlife) to save other people. Do you worship them, think about them as much as you think about your god?

Fine. So god died on a cross to avoid me being punished (because he somehow decided I should be punished at the first place…whatever I could do, I would still be a sinner hence would deserve a punishment, according to your beliefs, right? So, he made me so there’s no way I could avoid being punished, right?). Now, I assume I won’t be punished. This death is guaranteeing us all an eternal life in the heaven. We don’t have to care anymore about sinning (and don’t smile, there has been several heretical christian sects which came to the same conclusion…of course they were burned alive by your fellow christians in the name of your loving god, but I disgress), we don’t have to follow any arbitrary rule, right?
If so, this religion is fine with me. I’m even ready to forgive god for 1)Having made me a sinner, with no possible way to avoid it 2) Having decided that all sinners (everybody) would be horribly tortured forever. After all, everybody makes mistakes, and being a god is so stressful…

22

That’s perfectly clear. If I someday have children i’ll tell them that if they don’t love me I will burn them alive in the fireplace. I’m sure you’ll approve me, and I’m certain the jury will praise me for my parenting talents when I’ll get arrested by mean police officers who don’t understand what love is all about and why it includes torturing one’s own children when it’s not a reciprocal feeling.

(Of course, I wouldn’t…only some totally depraved people and gods can torture childrens)

It’s a great improvment by comparison with the god Baal, for instance who only wanted people to be burned to death. Probably he didn’t love people enough, since he didn’t came to the idea that a true love required eternal torture instead of only some hours of suffering. Don’t even tell me about Tezcatlipoca. People weren’t even tortured a little bit. Obviously not a good example. Especially since Tezcatlipoca was burning and suffering forever for the well-being of mankind. What god in his right mind would suffer torments instead of imposing them on others? How could people worship such a ridiculously non assertive god?

23

Oh…and just in case…
Don’t tell me I can’t judge god or somesuch. Remember : since my ancestors ate the forbidden fruit, I’m able to tell apart good and evil (It was the whole point, wasn’t it?). If you’re going to argue that I can’t properly recognize evil when I see it, it means that I didn’t receive this gift. Hence I’m not able to know what is evil and good, and can’t be held responsible if I choose the wrong path and can’t be rightly punished for errors (like believing that ordering a genocide or torturing people isn’t good) I was unable to perceive.
IOW, either I’m gifted with the ability to recognize god and evil, and your god is evil, either I’m not and you’re telling lies about the whole creation story. In both cases, your religion is wrong.

24

I guess so MrVisible. I wish I had a better answer for you. I don’t claim to know why God made things this way, I just believe that he did and I believe Jesus did as the bible says he did.

Do you believe that Jesus was a real man and the historical documents about his life are real?

25

clair

Yes, Adam and Eve sinned. They made the choice to.
They were born unsinful.
If they hadn’t sinned, we would all be unsinful too.
Its inherited, throuhg the father, which is why jesus didn’t have a physical father.
I cannot understand at all anyone NOT wanting to accept Jesus’ sacrifice for their sins.
Its so easy and free.
But hey, its your choice.

26

clairobscur, I know you don’t like the Christian belief system and from other posts I have read of yours I believe you are baffled by those that are believers and sometimes I get the feeling you are angered by it.

The scriptures make it plain that God did not create the world in the state in which it is now. The Bible says that God is a God of love and he desired to create a race that would love him. But genuine love cannot exist unless freely given through free choice and will, and thus man was given the choice to accept God’s love or to reject it.

God does not desire evil nor does he condone it. For whatever reason God chose to make man as he is - limited and suffering and subject to sorrow and death - He had the honesty and the courage to take his own medicine - so to speak. He can exact nothing from man that He has not exacted from himself.

Although the bible tells us how and why evil came about, it does not tell us why God allowed it to happen. However, it does say that God is all-wise and all-knowing and that he has reasons for allowing things to happen that are beyond our comprehension.

Even though sin and evil are real, it is not something that we accept as the way things ought to be. By identifying with Jesus, we believe as Christians that we have a duty to call things wrong that are wrong and to speak out when evil is overtaking good. So basically we are in the same boat as you in the belief that we don’t know why evil exists, we don’t like it and we try to live our lives by not taking part in it.

27

So Jesus died for my sins, but unless I believe in God, it doesn’t count for anything. How did Jesus’ death change things? Isn’t that the same situation that existed before Jesus’ death?

Claiming that Jesus died for my sins is a lie.

To which particular contradictory historical documents are you referring? And what does that have to do with anything?

28

Well if you did not believe he even existed as a human being then there would be no point in me discussing with you what he did in his life on earth.

29

Actually, no.

It’s very simple. If He did not desire evil, He would know (He’s omniscient, recall) that His Creation would lead to it. He saw that it was good.

How does one describe a being who thinks deliberately bringing suffering into being is a good thing?

In order for the “His own medicine” to hold, the story would need to be that Jesus died on the cross, and suffers eternally in Hell through no fault of his own, but his ancestry as the Son of Man. Original Sin, dontcha know. That would be the story of a sacrifice.

What exists instead, is the story of someone slumming it for awhile, then returning back to their posh house up on high.

Good thing they’re both just stories.

30

I’m not so sure; the vicarious suffering and death of Jesus could be much more accurately (IMHO) described as him allowing death to break it’s teeth on himself; he was exactly the wrong sort of input and the system broke. YMMV

31

Which is a fine formulation, but still not a sacrifice. Nothing was lost–unless it was the opportunity to roast some sinners who instead could then slip through the bits of the death machine where all the gears were busted up. And that’s sort of like a criminal “sacrificing” future crimes.

32

Hey, you’re able to believe in an omniscient, omnipotent, omnibenevolent creator without a scrap of evidence. Why would you need proof that his son existed? If there was no proof to that effect, would you cease to believe in God altogether? I thought this was all about faith?

33

Excatly who is God responsible to?

34

The reason that God doesn’t wipe sinners’ slates clean, is because God is infinitely just. Someone has to pay for the sins of humanity. But, God loves humanity so much, that he paid the wages of sin for us. He suffered and died so that we wouldn’t have to. God let us off the hook!God does not desire the death of sinners. Rather, that they turn from their wickeness and live.

On another note, how was Jesus’s suffering and dying not a sacrifice.

[Jesus’s life, in a nutshell]
Jesus, the most upright, good, and honest man who ever walked this earth, lived in Judaea during the pax Romana. He grew up and became a great teacher. He healed the sick. He forgave sins. He performed great miracles. Among these, he fed 5,000 men, along with the women and children with them, with five loaves of bread and two fish. He turned water to wine when the banquet host ran out of refreshments. Jesus was a generally “good guy.” He simplified religion down to two simple tenets. Love the Lord. Love your neighbor. That’s the extent of His life on earth. The religious leaders of the day saw him as a threat to their political power, and so arrested him on baseless accusations. One of Jesus’s best friends betrayed Him for a measly sum of money. Another one, the man who claimed to remain with Him forever, denied three times that he never knew Jesus. They tried Him in a mock trial in a religious court but, because they didn’t have the power to put Him to death, they turned Jesus over to the Roman Governor, Pontius Pilatus. Pilate found nothing wrong that the man had done. But, to appease the crowds, Pilate turned Him over to the crowd. Jesus, the man who had never so much as jaywalked, and who did an obnoxious amount of good for most everyone He met, was going to be put to death out of spite. They fashioned Him a cross, stripped him of his clothes, and made him bear the burden a few miles to where He was to die. In Jesus’s little finger, He had the power to destroy all of His enemies. He had the power to set himself free, but He did not. Once on the hill, the guards wrapped thorns around His head. They spat upon him, insulted Him in front of His mother, crying her eyes out. They drove rusty nails through his hands and feet, and threw a spear into His side. Then, as a final insult, they gambled for His clothing underneath His feet. They cast dice for His only posessions.

Finally, after nightfall, we have Jesus. The nails in his hands and feet, and the spear in his side are getting infected. Maggots are probably swarming. Crows are circling overhead, waiting to pick at his bones. The weight of His body is pulling down on His lungs, making it difficult to breathe. He is suffocating, and drowning in His own blood simultaneously. The nails are opening gaps in his wrists. Nobody is there to salve His wounds, or to give a word of comfort. This man who never did anything wrong except help people, who had an inordinate love for all He met, died. He died penniless. He died naked. All His friends abandoned Him. He had nothing left. And so, when blood is filling up his lungs, while he is dying a slow, excruciatingly painful death, he breathes his laborious last.
[/Jesus’s life, in a nutshell]

“Mildly inconvenienced,” my ass.

35

Oh, Eutychus.

God is responsible to himself.

36

Then he himself can decide how to forgive sin and the death of an innocent man was not required.

37

You left out the part of the nutshell where he ascends back to Godhead and settles back into being omniscient and omnipotent. Also, the part where after that happens, billions of people–you know, ordinary sorts of people, the ones who don’t get to rise from the dead three days after breathing their laborious lasts–have died and continue to die alone and afraid in the years afterwards, and then (if they’re not Christians) get to suffer for an eternity more. And the earlier part where, being before Abraham was, he knew that that would be what would happen when he chose to incarnate and start his only begotten fleshly ride.

I think that’s a fairly large part of the nutshell. Difficult to overlook, really.

You see, to a mortal human being, intensely agonizing death is a pretty big thing. To an eternal, omniscient and omnipotent being, I doubt the scale’s quite the same thing.

38

So, if you only partially “know” God, what prevents you from being wrong on the parts that you think you know about this god? For all you know, he could be as evil as the OP posits. And reading those Bible quotes, I can’t see how else he could labeled.

Furthermore, I’m curious, what attributes does this anthropomorphic personal supreme being of yours have? And how did you come about this “knowledge”?

Thanks in advance for your answers.

39

He did decide and the death of his son was what he decided.

40

Well … I think that answers the OPs question then. Given the choice … having the choice … taking that choice … where does that lead you?