Is the J-C God evil?

I don’t believe in the JudeoChristian God, or the Bible, however, if we take the Bible as evidence of and for God, he seems to be a horrible, evil being.

I’ll dig out my Bible tomorrow so I can provide cites, but in the meantime:

Does God’s record of infamy in the Bible make the case that he is evil? As a subthread within this one, does Satan get a bad rap?

Well, if he isn’t evil per se, you could definetly make a case that he leans toward malevolence now and then. As for Satan… well, we all know that the winners write the history books. :wink:

Here’s an interesting little essay about Lucifer (taken as a fictional being), and how he’s a force for rationality against the blind faith of God. I thought it was pretty good.

Devout Christians probably won’t enjoy it a great deal.
http://www.lucifer.com/lucifer.html

I’ve read that essay, Genseric, and it is a good one.

I tend to see Lucifer as a Promethean being, in that it was he who gave man free will (if he is the ‘serpent’ in Eden, which is how I think many denominations interpret it), and that he was castigated for it as Prometheus was.

But, as I said in the OP, I really need to dig out my Bible, as I can’t quote very many passages from memory. :slight_smile: I’ll be back tomorrow.

I guess we can start without you?

Here’s a few choice verses…

Deuteronomy
2:32 Then Sihon came out against us, he and all his people, to fight at Jahaz.
2:33 And the LORD our God delivered him before us; and we smote him, and his sons, and all his people.
2:34 And we took all his cities at that time, and utterly destroyed the men, and the women, and the little ones, of every city, we left none to remain:
2:35 Only the cattle we took for a prey unto ourselves, and the spoil of the cities which we took.

3:1 Then we turned, and went up the way to Bashan: and Og the king of Bashan came out against us, he and all his people, to battle at Edrei.
3:2 And the LORD said unto me, Fear him not: for I will deliver him, and all his people, and his land, into thy hand; and thou shalt do unto him as thou didst unto Sihon king of the Amorites, which dwelt at Heshbon.
3:3 So the LORD our God delivered into our hands Og also, the king of Bashan, and all his people: and we smote him until none was left to him remaining.
3:4 And we took all his cities at that time, there was not a city which we took not from them, threescore cities, all the region of Argob, the kingdom of Og in Bashan.
3:5 All these cities were fenced with high walls, gates, and bars; beside unwalled towns a great many.
3:6 And we utterly destroyed them, as we did unto Sihon king of Heshbon, utterly destroying the men, women, and children, of every city.
3:7 But all the cattle, and the spoil of the cities, we took for a prey to ourselves.

Joshua
6:21 And they utterly destroyed all that was in the city, both man and woman, young and old, and ox, and sheep, and ass, with the edge of the sword.

8:24 And it came to pass, when Israel had made an end of slaying all the inhabitants of Ai in the field, in the wilderness wherein they chased them, and when they were all fallen on the edge of the sword, until they were consumed, that all the Israelites returned unto Ai, and smote it with the edge of the sword.
8:25 And so it was, that all that fell that day, both of men and women, were twelve thousand, even all the men of Ai.
8:26 For Joshua drew not his hand back, wherewith he stretched out the spear, until he had utterly destroyed all the inhabitants of Ai.
8:27 Only the cattle and the spoil of that city Israel took for a prey unto themselves, according unto the word of the LORD which he commanded Joshua.
8:28 And Joshua burnt Ai, and made it an heap for ever, even a desolation unto this day.
8:29 And the king of Ai he hanged on a tree until eventide;

10:28 And that day Joshua took Makkedah, and smote it with the edge of the sword, and the king thereof he utterly destroyed, them, and all the souls that were therein; he let none remain :

11:14 And all the spoil of these cities, and the cattle, the children of Israel took for a prey unto themselves; but every man they smote with the edge of the sword, until they had destroyed them, neither left they any to breathe.
11:15 As the LORD commanded Moses his servant, so did Moses command Joshua, and so did Joshua; he left nothing undone of all that the LORD commanded Moses.

Judges
9:23 Then God sent an evil spirit between Abimelech and the men of Shechem; and the men of Shechem dealt treacherously with Abimelech

12:6 Then said they unto him, Say now Shibboleth: and he said Sibboleth: for he could not frame to pronounce it right. Then they took him, and slew him at the passages of Jordan: and there fell at that time of the Ephraimites forty and two thousand.

1 Samuel
15:2 Thus saith the LORD of hosts, I remember that which Amalek did to Israel, how he laid wait for him in the way, when he came up from Egypt.
15:3 Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ass.
15:7 And Saul smote the Amalekites from Havilah until thou comest to Shur, that is over against Egypt.
15:8 And he took Agag the king of the Amalekites alive, and utterly destroyed all the people with the edge of the sword.
15:9 But Saul and the people spared Agag, and the best of the sheep, and of the oxen, and of the fatlings, and the lambs, and all that was good, and would not utterly destroy them: but every thing that was vile and refuse, that they destroyed utterly.
15:10 Then came the word of the LORD unto Samuel, saying,
15:11 It repenteth me that I have set up Saul to be king: for he is turned back from following me, and hath not performed my commandments.

2 Kings
2:23 And he (Elisha) went up from thence unto Bethel: and as he was going up by the way, there came forth little children out of the city, and mocked him, and said unto him, Go up, thou bald head; go up, thou bald head.
2:24 And he turned back, and looked on them, and cursed them in the name of the LORD. And there came forth two she bears out of the wood, and tare (ripped apart) forty and two children of them.

19:35 And it came to pass that night, that the angel of the LORD went out, and smote in the camp of the Assyrians an hundred fourscore and five thousand(185,000): and when they arose early in the morning, behold, they were all dead corpses.

1 Chronicles
21:14 So the LORD sent pestilence upon Israel: and there fell of Israel seventy thousand men.
21:15 And God sent an angel unto Jerusalem to destroy it: and as he was destroying, the LORD beheld, and he repented him of the evil, and said to the angel that destroyed, It is enough, stay now thine hand.

Isaiah
13:13 Therefore I will shake the heavens, and the earth shall remove out of her place, in the wrath of the LORD of hosts, and in the day of his fierce anger.
13:14 And it shall be as the chased roe, and as a sheep that no man taketh up: they shall every man turn to his own people, and flee every one into his own land.
13:15 Every one that is found shall be thrust through; and every one that is joined unto them shall fall by the sword.
13:16 Their children also shall be dashed to pieces before their eyes; their houses shall be spoiled, and their wives ravished.

Mark
10:17 And when he was gone forth into the way, there came one running, and kneeled to him, and asked him, Good Master, what shall I do that I may inherit eternal life?
10:18 And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God.

11:13 And seeing a fig tree afar off having leaves, he came, if haply he might find any thing thereon: and when he came to it, he found nothing but leaves; for the time of figs was not yet.
11:14 And Jesus answered and said unto it, No man eat fruit of thee hereafter for ever…
…11:20 And in the morning, as they passed by, they saw the fig tree dried up from the roots.
11:21 And Peter calling to remembrance saith unto him, Master, behold, the fig tree which thou cursedst is withered away.
11:22 And Jesus answering saith unto them, Have faith in God.

Satan isn’t too bad a guy in the Book of Job. He’s part of the celestial staff, acting as a sort of District Attorney.

God created mankind with free will; Lucifier did nothing but encourage Eve to abuse that free will.

Then, as now, free will comes with consequences.

And God… well, God plonked the tree of good and evil down in the middle of the garden, instead of off on the moon or a remote part of Antarctica… or not putting it there at all.

So, God and Satan, in cahoots. The beginning of what seems to be a long, fruitful partnership.

Brutus, how so did God create man with free will? If you do not know the difference between good and evil, you cannot make choices, you can only do what you’re told to do.

Thanks, Genseric, for the samples. :smiley:

Isn’t it possible, indeed likely, that the Bible is in fact the record of a hideously evil dictator-God, one among many gods? “For I thy Lord am a jealous God?”

Furthermore, if you don’t know the difference, you don’t know that disobedience is evil.

This is the point where people hem and haw and eventually move into Mysterious Ways.

What the heck are you talking about? Of course you can make choices if you don’t know the difference between good and evil. You just can’t make moral choices. They would be amoral choices. But they are still choices.

[fighting for the other side]

God’s instructions for living

Philippians 2:3
Do nothing out of selfish ambition or vain conceit, but in humility consider others better than youselves.

Colossians 3:12
Therefore, as God’s chosen people, holy and dearly loved, clothe yourselves with compassion, kindness, humility, gentleness, and patience.

Matthew 18:21
"Then Peter came to Jesus and asked, “Lord, how many times shall I forgive my brother when he sins against me? Up to seven times?” Jesus answered, “I tell you, not seven times, but seventy-seven times”

Matthew 5:43-44
You have heard that it was said, Love your neighbor and hate your enemy. But I tell you: Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you"

Matthew 5:38
“You have heard that it was said, ‘Eve for an eye, and tooth for a tooth’. But I tell you, Do not resist an evil person. If someone strikes you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also. And if someone wants to take your tunic, let him have your cloak as well. If someone forces you to go one mile, go with him two miles.”

Matthew 7:24
“Therefore everyone who hears these words of mine and puts them into practice is like a wise man who built his house on the rock”

The words of a God who is evil? That’s up to you to decide.

[/break in fighting for the other side]

He sent His son to die innocently for us and He’s evil?
I don’t think so.

vanilla, who is glad to not be the only fundie here.
Hi dreamer and WV and jersey!:slight_smile:

Um… didn’t his son supposedly pop back up a few days later?

So, he didn’t really die, right? I mean, I’m sure it was unpleasant, but he got to come back, and then ascend bodily into heaven.

The old “Jesus was inconvenienced for my sins” debate.

Die, come back a few days later, walk around freaking people out for a few days, then ascend to heaven for good. Heck, I’d do that for fun!

Of course! Don’t you have any idea how many non-Christians view the crucifixion?

Think of it this way. A judge decides that the way to handle crime is thus: he’ll send his own son into the prisons, where he will be tortured and killed. Then, anyone who wants to will be let out of the prison, so long as he accepts the judge’s gift of forgiveness.

What kind of madman comes up with a scheme such as you impart to your god? Your deity could simply forgive everyone, but instead he’s not happy unless his son gets tortured?

By God’s law of justice, Somebody had to be punished.
Instead of all of us, His son took it upon himself to do so.
That is love, IMHO.

Gotta go, back on Monday.

Why is it just for every human being to be sent to Hell? If we are all somehow bad, why didn’t God make us better? Why can’t there be a system without any torture and suffering at all?

Besides, if Jesus died for my sins, why is everyone, even innocents, still considered a sinner? It seems that particular tactic was spectacularly ineffective.

Why is it so difficult to understand that there is a choice everyone makes to either believe or not believe. God doesn’t want anyone to go to Hell and certainly does not make up their minds for them to not listen to him. God wants us to love him back, in order for us to do that we must choose to love him.

2 Peter 3:9
“The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance”

1 Timothy 2:3
“This is good, and pleases God our Savior who wants all men to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth”

So, Jesus died for my sins, but the offer is only valid if I also choose to believe that Jesus died for my sins, without any proof to that end whatsoever. Is that it?