IS the phrase "I don't see color" offensive?

Great Debates
121

One saying that I like as a way of explaining it is that “racism is the soup, not the croutons”. That is, there is not a discrete set of racist people surrounded by everyone else who is not racist, instead, racism is the sea that we all swim in and it’s our choice of how to live knowing that fact.

To give you an example, in the tech industry in Silicon Valley, personal referrals give you a very strong leg up in the hiring process. This is an entirely rational process but what it leads to is that companies that are comprised of a core group of people tend to hire more of the same people since people tend to be friends with people similar to themselves. This ends up leading to racial disparity since the majority of people in tech are White/Asian and so they continue to reinforce that color bias. Despite not being able to point to any one person who was individually racist in this scenario, the end result is still one that uniquely disenfranchises black/hispanic tech workers and requires active awareness and mitigation in order to correct this disparity.

Another salient example, there’s strong evidence that shows that if you’re the only one of X on your team, you’re dramatically more likely to attrition out compared to if there are at least 2 of X on the team. The reason is, if you’re the only X, you’re solely responsible for being the voice of X when arguing against the rest of the team which is immensely tiring. If there’s more than one, then the rest of the team is more likely to accept your views because they’re echoed by another person. As an Asian or White male, it’s extremely unlikely to ever find yourself as the only member of your type on a team. However, given that Black/Hispanic/Female representation in tech is only 1%/3%/13% respectively and team sizes tend to be between 8 - 15 people, even if tech practiced pure colorblind selection, it would lead to overwhelming majorities of teams only having one Black/Hispanic/Female member. The data shows that this leads to disproportionate attrition from these groups, not only from your team but from the industry in general, only worsening the representation statistics and making tech an even more inhospitable place. Again, even if we were able to remove all of the overt racist behavior in tech (of which there’s also plenty that drum people out), there’s still disparate racial impact which requires active efforts to mitigate if you believe in racial justice.

All of these things require you to be able to actively see color in order to address. “Not seeing color” is just putting your head in the sand and hoping the problems go away on their own which is doable if these problems end up not affecting you or benefiting you but it’s pretty fucking shitty if you’re on the receiving end of these problems.

122

That’s some interesting reading. Thanks.

I note that in your first link they seem to spend a lot of discussing why it might be so that African Americans have high self esteem when they are self evidently in a disadvantaged group. On balance, I don’t think it supports your argument all that well as it may be that this particular indicator (self esteem) is an outlier.
From the link:
“[S]ome scholars have suggested that African-American families strive to instill self-esteem in youth so that they will be able to cope with discrimination (reviewed in Hughes et al., 2006). Likewise, African Americans might emphasize their “desirable distinctiveness” (Gray-Little & Hafdahl, 2000, p. 26) and therefore report higher levels of self-esteem.”

The work on inherent biases cited in the Wikipedia article I linked earlier seem more likely than self-esteem to be correlated to outcomes like getting a job or getting shot by cops.
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123

Oh, and in addition to all of this, there’s an implicit assumption underlying “I don’t see color” that the imagined racial utopia is one in which all color differences have been erased and we end up in a monocultural, assimilationist society. Historically, what this has meant is that POC are meant to assimilate into majority/white culture. Role models of assimilationist culture is always POC looking and acting in such a way that they could “pass” as white. When people say “I honestly didn’t know what race you were until X”, it’s never a white dude who acts so black that people are shocked to find out he’s actually white.

Understandably, many POC have real problems with this entire world view. They view their race as a positive part of their cultural identity and something which they actively assert. They choose to dress in a certain way, speak with a certain accent and eat certain foods as active outward trappings that assert their race because they want other people to see their color. In their ideal utopia, racial differences don’t go away over time, instead racial/cultural identity is preserved and propagated as a differentiator.

Cast in this context, refusing to see their color isn’t some benign, idealistic act, it’s an active denying of their wishes. Yes, they want you to view them as individuals but as individuals who belong to a certain race.

124

Or, more simply and charitatively, “I don’t see color” means “I’ll just pay attention to how well your perform your job”

Is race a real thing? Should I assume a race and cultural background upon seeing the person? I just a person that can do job A. How far into their cultural/phenotypical background should I go? Are all black the same? All Hispanics? What about White Hispanics? What about por White Hispanics?

So, their race is more important than themselves.
The lesbian black woman for the UK with Oxford education who has rich parents of Nigerian descent must be treated, in their job application, different tan the por Alabam White who came from Community college? Isn’t that even more racist?
Does race trump ability?

125

No one is saying don’t treat people as individuals. We are saying that you should be aware of the racist context in which we all operate.

I would not raise an eyebrow at anyone who said, “I don’t think I’m racist but I’m aware of the inherent racism of the society I live in and the unconscious bias that can foster in myself; therefore I take steps to reduce the impact of racism overall and in my own actions. It’s possible I don’t get it right every time but I’m open to learning and growing.”

But someone who claims to be not racist, full stop, is either trying to bullshit me or bullshit themselves.
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126

When I hear ‘‘I don’t see color’’ I don’t find it offensive, but I pretty much assume the person in question is either oblivious to or denies the existence of structural racism. In my experience, the people who say this are much less likely to believe in systemic inequality.

I’m white. I’m with epolo, we’re all in the soup. I feel the same way about issues of sexual assault, where we treat perpetrators like egregious outliers (if we’re not outright bullying their victims) but really the perpetrators are just a product of the culture we all create. It’s easier to say, ‘‘We wash our hands of these racists,’’ but I think taking responsibility for our shared culture will be more productive in the long run.

The problem is it’s really hard to talk about racism without white people freaking the fuck out. It’s not the end of the fucking world if you did something racist. It’s pretty much the status quo. What matters is that you acknowledge it and deal with your own bias the best you can. And if you can get to that point, and then start working on the bias in the system, that’s even better. It’s the people who refuse to acknowledge their own biases that get to me the most.

127

Or they are telling the truth? It isn’t that outlandish. Your post above is sadly just another version of “everyone must be a racist either consciously or unconsciously, and there is no possibility of anyone ever making a valid claim to be non-racist”. Clearly those of us who don’t harbour racist thoughts, exhibit racial bias or undertake racist actions are in some way still a racist. If the word is to retain any meaning at all then clearly that is offensive and you intend it to be. Fair enough, that’s your choice.

Maybe my society is different to yours. I’m willing to accept that from your experiences you cannot imagine someone not being a racist. Can you not accept that other places in the world may have very different experiences?
That may be part of the miscommunication here, you may be mired in a racist swamp and can’t imagine anyone remaining clean but that can quite easily colour your opinion of what is actually possible.

Still, I cannot believe that you have no-one in your sphere of interraction to whom you allow the status “not a racist”

128

Do you also then think that everyone is a “sexual assaulter” or is it possible for some people to be “not a sexual assaulter”

Who is saying that we should wash our hands of racists (which of course includes everyone seeing as everyone is racist) and do nothing else at all? Of course the culture needs to be tackled, of course structural and inherent biases and prejudice needs to be looked for and dealt with. Constant vigilance is required for all societies ills. If you withdraw from that responsibility then to what extent are you actually a part of society?

Sure, because everyone has to have those biases yes? Even those who don’t show it in the IAT? They must just be hiding it really well. And also, are you suggesting that only people who accept that they have biases and accept their own racism can then move on to tackling the systems themselves? How does that work?

Look, the reason I kick back against this, and all lazy blanket thinking like yours is not that I’m trying to deny my own shortcomings. The list of those are long and illustrious, but it happens to be that racism is not one of them. Not to any extent that you could measure. And I think to be accused of being a racist is a powerful claim, an important claim and I do not belong in that category. Worse, it cheapens and demeans the term and the charge. So I don’t accept it, nor your lazy stereotypical assertions above.
I know what I think and what I do. I know how I treat others and I reject your attempt to extend your own experiences and make them the default for everyone else.

129

I think I’ve added enough to this and don’t think there’s any point adding to what I’ve already said, other than to sum it up this.

The important part of each of those statements is not “I am not a racist”

130

So I can assume that a black person (for instance) wants to be treated a certain way, and that way is different from anyone belonging to a different race.

Saying that I don’t see color is, apparently, right out. So how about this -

"Good morning. My name is Shodan, and we will be working together on this project. I see that you are a black woman. I recognize that we live in a racist society, and I will be actively working on my unconscious bias against you. Please let me know the other ways you would like me to treat you, that are different from the ways I treat the white, Indian, and Asian members of the team.

Now let’s talk about the specs document…"

Regards,
Shodan

131

Because we live in a religious society, deep down everyone believes in God, and people who claim to be atheists are just fooling themselves. Discuss.

132

The idea is that our society is so racist that it installs the idea that black people are somehow less than others. Not only that but that it is impossible to escape this idea because the messages from society are too powerful.
If this were true we would expect whites who are being sent the message that they are the best to feel better about themselves than black people who are being sent the message that they are the worst. The data shows that the opposite is the truth. At every age and in both sexes black people feel better about themselves than white people do. This means that either the message from society is not that black people are less than or that it is possible to resist this message, or both. Is there another possibility?

The ideas on the implicit stereotype pages are based on woo, not science. Implicitassociation tests to not have external validity or reliability. All primingis not replicable and does not work.

133

I doubt that very many people want to internalize an identity as oppressor, or as unfair beneficiaries of someone else’s unequal social situation.

We’d better hope there’s an excluded middle floating around here somewhere, one that allows for the probability that we are all affected by racist ideology without mandating that our perspectives on race are fully formed by it.

My lifetime experience says that is, in fact, the case. And that, furthermore, although the oppressed very obviously have it worse than those oppressing them within an oppressive situation, oppression is actually not of benefit, ultimately, to the oppressors — not once you take into account the entirely of their quality of life, including their coexistence with other people, the effects of being an oppressor on their overall character and outlook, and the above-mentioned self-image as people who oppress others. And that, too, is a damn good thing, since without that truth there wouldn’t be much hope of ever changing an oppressive relationship or of attaining a world that didn’t perpetually have someone (or some group) oppressing simply because the opportunity presented itself.

134

Sure there are other possibilities. For example, black people may absorb negative messages and therefore set low and easily exceeded expectations resulting in higher self esteem. White people may compare themselves to the many famous, rich white people they see and have lower self esteem. But there could be many other possibilities.
The authors of the study you cite clearly thought that this was a puzzle requiring further research as it is obvious to anyone observing American society that there are negative messages directed at black folks.

Did you read the articles you link above? They don’t really support what you’re saying. This is part of the healthy back and forth of science, questioning testing methodology and measures. But no one thinks that implicit bias and priming aren’t real. You’re making the same error as a climate change denier who cites challenges to particular studies as proof that the overall trend isn’t real.
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135

Flawed analogy, because atheism is by definition a conscious belief (or opinion about belief). The concept of “societal racism” deals with unconscious influences.

A more apt analogy would be something like “Because we live in a religious society, everyone has some behaviors or attitudes that are inherently influenced by belief in God; for example, automatically perceiving phrases like I swear to God as more forceful than phrases like I assure you”.

Nice try, but you missed the target.

136

America is a Christian society. Not everyone (even self identified Christians) believes in God. But everyone who doesn’t actively reject the dominant Christian paradigm participates in it. For example, we all take off on Christmas whether we celebrate it or not. American Jews celebrate Hanukkah far out of proportion to its traditional importance and that’s clearly due to its proximity to Christmas.

Anyone who lives in America and claims not to be influenced by Christian practices and values is in fact kidding themselves.
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137

If you are not a participant in modern American society, your conclusions may well be different. I have no idea where you’re from. My impression is that there are similar biases that play much the same role as American racism in other parts of the world (e.g., anti-semitism in Europe, caste prejudice in India) but I won’t try to speak for those societies.

That said, among my acquaintances, I would classify as “not racist” anyone who acknowledges and takes steps to correct their own prejudices. The friend I’m least concerned about driving drunk isn’t the one who claims he has no problem with alcohol or even the one who says he never drinks, it’s the one who knows he has a problem with drink, understands the dangers, goes to AA meetings, has a backup plan if he falls off the wagon, etc.
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138

We’ve been here before. Atheism is the lack of theism not a positive assertion, I didn’t make a conscious decision to be an atheist.

139

They may be exposed to, but not necessarily influenced by Christian practices. Ultimately there will certainly be people in the USA that resist any influence, and who you would never describe as “christians”. I suspect if they described themselves as “not christian” you’d have no problem with that.

140

I think we’re talking about attitudes, not actions. I think everyone contributes to the culture that allows sexual assault to happen so frequently and with so little consequences for the perpetrator. Some people contribute more heavily than others, but we make up this society as a collective so we all have to take responsibility for it. I don’t see individual incidents of assault or racism as existing in a vacuum, I see them as a product of our culture. A lot of people fail to see that.

My husband is one of the most feminist people I know, ideologically speaking, but he doesn’t run around proclaiming ‘‘I don’t see gender.’’ I mean come on. (Actually, ‘‘I don’t see gender’’ is something he does say occasionally, to make fun of people who say ‘‘I don’t see color.’’)

This I agree with, which is basically my point. The vast majority of people I have known who say ‘‘I don’t see color’’ have no interest whatsoever in dismantling systemic racism. The people most loudly proclaiming they aren’t racists are not the people doing the work. They are the people who think ‘‘I am not a racist’’ is the sum total of their work. See also: I am not a rapist. There are plenty of people on this board who condemn rape but embrace attitudes that make rape more likely to occur. I’m not going to call them rapists, but their beliefs are problematic, so there has to be some negative word for it. I’m not interested in singling out individuals as much as pointing out behavioral patterns that don’t help.

I do find it farfetched that anyone can live in this society and not have unconscious racial biases. Mine are actually pretty conscious, I think. But I was raised in a racist swamp including two extended family members in the KKK. I hate racism, it seems like an infectious disease to me. This country is full of racist shitholes, which I know because I’ve lived in many of them. I grew up in Michigan, I did find living on the East Coast that people seemed to be a lot more chill about race. Even what looked like race wars in the inner city weren’t, strictly speaking, about race, at least not according to the kids participating. I am not claiming racism didn’t exist, but it seemed different in how it played out, with much more emphasis on class and power structures, really when we talk about structural racism those are the folks getting hit the hardest.

I thought of a good example of what ‘‘I don’t see color’’ means when I hear it. It’s from the TV show This is Us, which is excellent. The show centers around three siblings, two white and one adopted black child, as they make their way through their adult lives. Randall, the black sibling, has dealt with his feelings by becoming a hyper-perfectionistic upper middle class professional. At the start of the show, he seeks out his biological father, who is an old dying man recovering from a heroine addiction. One morning, his father is standing outside of Randall’s home smoking in the driveway, and someone in the neighborhood calls the police.

See, Randall is effectively not black to the people in his community, so they can go around with their well-meaning ‘‘I don’t see color’’ and feel good about themselves for not being racist. But he is black, and no matter how much money he earns or how much he contributes to his community, his blackness is not something that can be erased.

It’s a really good show, you guys. Sterling K. Brown, who plays Randall, won an Emmy for Outstanding Lead Actor and was the first black actor to win the award in over 20 years. The show does a great job of addressing issues of race in a way that is realistic and not villainizing of people for their ignorance. As someone who might someday raise a black kid (currently on adoption waiting list for child of any race) I thought the way they deal with the white Mom’s honest efforts and terrible mistakes was pretty powerful.