IS the phrase "I don't see color" offensive?

[Novelty_Bobble]

@epolo

That said, among my acquaintances, I would classify as “not racist” anyone who acknowledges and takes steps to correct their own prejudices.

So…you’d only classify a racist friend as “not racist”?

The friend I’m least concerned about driving drunk isn’t the one who claims he has no problem with alcohol or even the one who says he never drinks, it’s the one who knows he has a problem with drink, understands the dangers, goes to AA meetings, has a backup plan if he falls off the wagon, etc.

That is bizarre in the extreme. You are less worried about a problem drinker than someone who never drinks?

[puddleglum]

@epolo

Sure there are other possibilities. For example, black people may absorb negative messages and therefore set low and easily exceeded expectations resulting in higher self esteem. White people may compare themselves to the many famous, rich white people they see and have lower self esteem. But there could be many other possibilities.
The authors of the study you cite clearly thought that this was a puzzle requiring further research as it is obvious to anyone observing American society that there are negative messages directed at black folks.

Did you read the articles you link above? They don’t really support what you’re saying. This is part of the healthy back and forth of science, questioning testing methodology and measures. But no one thinks that implicit bias and priming aren’t real. You’re making the same error as a climate change denier who cites challenges to particular studies as proof that the overall trend isn’t real.
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You are just saying my point in different words. If black people can overcome what society supposedly says about them enough to have high self esteem, even by picking their own level of success. That means that the messages of society can be overcome. If black people can overcome these supposed messages then so can whites. Thus it is possible for a white person to not be racist.

The articles I linked present data bebunking implicit bias tests and priming. Then there is a mealy mouthed discussion of the data. In order to understand social science you have to know that nearly all social scientists are very liberal and very biased. Thus you cannot boldly present evidence that goes against the narrative and expect not to be blackballed. It has to be done in a tentative and apologizing way. Therefore when you read social scientists the best way is to focus on the experimental design and the data. The data debunking implicit bias testing is much stronger than the data they are based on. Even the people who came up with the implicit bias test have admittedthat “attempts to diagnostically use such measures for individuals risk undesirably high rates of erroneous classifications” Priming has a better foundation but those studies are not replicating and the emerging consensus around honest observers is that there is nothing to it.

[drad_dog]

@Shodan

So I can assume that a black person (for instance) wants to be treated a certain way, and that way is different from anyone belonging to a different race.

Saying that I don’t see color is, apparently, right out. So how about this -

"Good morning. My name is Shodan, and we will be working together on this project. I see that you are a black woman. I recognize that we live in a racist society, and I will be actively working on my unconscious bias against you. Please let me know the other ways you would like me to treat you, that are different from the ways I treat the white, Indian, and Asian members of the team.

Now let’s talk about the specs document…"

Regards,
Shodan

Some things happen in the non verbals. People can tell what they’re looking at by the tones. But it looks like you can’t start working with someone of color without saying something about that fact?

You see color. Don’t say you don’t.

[puddleglum]

@epolo

That said, among my acquaintances, I would classify as “not racist” anyone who acknowledges and takes steps to correct their own prejudices. The friend I’m least concerned about driving drunk isn’t the one who claims he has no problem with alcohol or even the one who says he never drinks, it’s the one who knows he has a problem with drink, understands the dangers, goes to AA meetings, has a backup plan if he falls off the wagon, etc.
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I hope that is not the way you pick out babysitters.

[Spice_Weasel]

If we’re going to get pedantic, this discussion is almost pointless unless we operationally define ‘‘racist.’’ It means a lot of things to a lot of people. For me it can mean any number of things depending on the context. It could be someone who commits racist acts and holds conscious and unexamined racist attitudes, it could mean a systemic status quo that perpetuates the oppression of people of color, or it could mean the unconscious bias that most people have as a result of social programming. For all we know we’re all operating with different definitions. I concede that imprecise language is part of the problem. For my purposes, I’m basically talking about the latter - unconscious social programming.

This is what I mean by white people freaking the fuck out. Saying you have unconscious racial bias is not a confession to being a raving card-carrying member of the KKK. Racial bias appears to be endemic to human biology, about as predictable as our need to identify with a tribe. We have to deal with that somehow and we have to deal with it especially given the history of this country. For all intents and purposes, it doesn’t matter if you, individual you, do not carry racial biases, only that humanity as a whole does by its very nature, and we all have to deal with that.

@Shodan

"Good morning. My name is Shodan, and we will be working together on this project. I see that you are a black woman. I recognize that we live in a racist society, and I will be actively working on my unconscious bias against you. Please let me know the other ways you would like me to treat you, that are different from the ways I treat the white, Indian, and Asian members of the team.

This is, of course, a ridiculous strawman (not to mention fallacy of the excluded middle), but I’m sure you know that.

[Kimstu]

@Novelty_Bobble

Atheism is the lack of theism not a positive assertion, I didn’t make a conscious decision to be an atheist.

I didn’t claim that atheists consciously choose whether or not they’ll be atheists (I didn’t choose it either). I’m saying that atheism, like theism, is an ideological category defined by what one consciously believes or doesn’t believe concerning the existence of a deity.

So coffeecat’s analogy was flawed because it was attempting to equate an explicit ideological position (i.e., theism) with something that is a pervasive cultural prejudice as well as an explicit ideological position (i.e., racism).

[Slash1972]

@Spice_Weasel

I thought of a good example of what ‘‘I don’t see color’’ means when I hear it. It’s from the TV show This is Us, which is excellent. The show centers around three siblings, two white and one adopted black child, as they make their way through their adult lives. Randall, the black sibling, has dealt with his feelings by becoming a hyper-perfectionistic upper middle class professional. At the start of the show, he seeks out his biological father, who is an old dying man recovering from a heroine addiction. One morning, his father is standing outside of Randall’s home smoking in the driveway, and someone in the neighborhood calls the police.

See, Randall is effectively not black to the people in his community, so they can go around with their well-meaning ‘‘I don’t see color’’ and feel good about themselves for not being racist. But he is black, and no matter how much money he earns or how much he contributes to his community, his blackness is not something that can be erased

Good example. Another good example from that show, from a less racist POV, is the kids’ mother. I’m sure she “didn’t see color” when she was raising them. Until she found out that black kids have specific differences that need to be addressed. In the show, it was a different barber because of Randall’s hair. And Randall wanted to hang out with other black kids which is why he wanted to go to a certain pool all the time. By the mother saying “I don’t see color”, it blinded her to aspects of her son that were different than her two white kids.

[Spice_Weasel]

@Slash1972

Good example. Another good example from that show, from a less racist POV, is the kids’ mother. I’m sure she “didn’t see color” when she was raising them. Until she found out that black kids have specific differences that need to be addressed. In the show, it was a different barber because of Randall’s hair. And Randall wanted to hang out with other black kids which is why he wanted to go to a certain pool all the time. By the mother saying “I don’t see color”, it blinded her to aspects of her son that were different than her two white kids.

Exactly. And despite her very real love for him, she was oblivious to how isolated he felt as the only black kid.

One I really related to is when the parents were afraid to send Randall to a special geek school because most of the other kids were white. It was their black friend that took them to task for holding him back (in essence) based on his race.

It’s not easy stuff to contend with.

[epolo]

@Novelty_Bobble

They may be exposed to, but not necessarily influenced by Christian practices. Ultimately there will certainly be people in the USA that resist any influence, and who you would never describe as “christians”. I suspect if they described themselves as “not christian” you’d have no problem with that.

Yes, that’s exactly my point. There are people who resist, but it’s an active an ongoing effort. Talk to anyone in Kiryas Joel and I’m sure they will be able to explain the lengths they go to to avoid being influenced by the prevailing Christian society.

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[monstro]

The people who say “I don’t see color” never seem to have a problem letting the cops know that it was a black guy who mugged them.

[epolo]

@Novelty_Bobble

So…you’d only classify a racist friend as “not racist”?

That is bizarre in the extreme. You are less worried about a problem drinker than someone who never drinks?

Would you classify a piece of paper as flat even though on a microscopic scale it’s extremely bumpy? Would you classify a thousand straws in a pile as a heap? There are such things as gradations. Someone who acknowledges bias and works to correct it is less racist than someone who doesn’t. If they’re good at correcting it, we could fairly call them “not racist” but it would be more accurate to say that they actively work not to be racist. If they ever stopped working at it, they would in all likelihood become somewhat more racist.

Maybe another analogy would work: it’s like being an “athlete”. Does running a marathon once make you an “athlete”? Making it to the Olympics once and then sitting on the couch for thirty years? Jogging a couple of miles every day for decades? Just having a good metabolism such that you don’t get fat even without trying? I don’t think there’s a single definitive definition of what makes a particular person an “athlete” (or not racist) but we can generally agree that it takes both a desire to be such and hard work to achieve.

Alcohol is an imperfect analogy because it’s much, much easier to avoid in our society than potential issues of race. But yeah, I would be less worried about someone who put in the work to avoid alcohol and had a strong support system and backup plan for when things go wrong than I would be about someone who claimed not to drink. You are of course correct that someone who verifiably never touches drink would be at even lower risk. But I’m not sure who that would be in an analogy with race. Who could possibly avoid all situations that have the potential to have a racial dynamic? Someone who eschews all contact with other humans?
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[epolo]

@puddleglum

You are just saying my point in different words. If black people can overcome what society supposedly says about them enough to have high self esteem, even by picking their own level of success. That means that the messages of society can be overcome. If black people can overcome these supposed messages then so can whites. Thus it is possible for a white person to not be racist.

Huh? That’s not what I’m saying at all. I’m saying that the phenomenon of racial animus might have a perverse effect on self esteem. And I think that’s consistent with the discussion in the article you cited. I don’t see anything to indicate that the pervasive bias against black people in the US can be “overcome”.

The articles I linked present data bebunking implicit bias tests and priming. Then there is a mealy mouthed discussion of the data. In order to understand social science you have to know that nearly all social scientists are very liberal and very biased. Thus you cannot boldly present evidence that goes against the narrative and expect not to be blackballed. It has to be done in a tentative and apologizing way. Therefore when you read social scientists the best way is to focus on the experimental design and the data. The data debunking implicit bias testing is much stronger than the data they are based on. Even the people who came up with the implicit bias test have admittedthat “attempts to diagnostically use such measures for individuals risk undesirably high rates of erroneous classifications” Priming has a better foundation but those studies are not replicating and the emerging consensus around honest observers is that there is nothing to it.

Oh, so we’re not engaging in honest debate here. I will quit trying.

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[epolo]

@Slash1972

Good example. Another good example from that show, from a less racist POV, is the kids’ mother. I’m sure she “didn’t see color” when she was raising them. Until she found out that black kids have specific differences that need to be addressed. In the show, it was a different barber because of Randall’s hair. And Randall wanted to hang out with other black kids which is why he wanted to go to a certain pool all the time. By the mother saying “I don’t see color”, it blinded her to aspects of her son that were different than her two white kids.

Agreed with you and Spice Weasel.
The show is quite schmaltzy, but the discussion about race is refreshingly open and honest.
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[Spice_Weasel]

Yeah, I’m a sucker for the schmaltz.

[Jake_Bullet_Traffic_Control]

Apologies for the late response. I don’t get online as often as I’d like. I’ve nothing really to add except that I’m glad I started this thread because some posters (in particular, Shalmanese in this post) made some very good points which have changed my thinking a lot on this issue, and I get why “I don’t see color” can come across as offensive.

So yeah, someone actually had their mind changed on the internet. It finally happened!

[Acsenray]

Nm

[Measure_for_Measure]

This is from October:

@drad_dog

I have a theory that the phrase “I don’t see color” has mostly been said as the joke, and was not a thing until that. Some writer for colbert overheard someone say it once and it became part of their output that day.

It was a perfect joke that colbert told, like one of his defining moments. I can remember hearing it.

Saying it straight is ridiculous. I just can’t imagine anyone doing it, unless as an explanation of something that is borderline racist.

Tomi Lahren used it without irony. Opinion: Dear 'White Allies', Stop Saying That You 'Don't See Color'

@drad_dog

Do you know how to search the usage over history? I just took a stab, and failed. It would be interesting.

This is from google searches. The spike is from the Tomi Lahren incident. There wasn’t a lot before 2008.

https://trends.google.com/trends/explore?date=all&q="I%20dont%20see%20color"

In books, usage took off starting in 1990 and is currently at record highs. There was some during the 1920s:

Google Books Ngram Viewer

[Captain_Amazing]

@Measure_for_Measure

In books, usage took off starting in 1990 and is currently at record highs. There was some during the 1920s:
Google Ngram Viewer

The stuff in the 20s isn’t racial, though. They tend to be philosophical books about actually seeing color. One’s a book of Indian philosophy that includes “I do not see color, I do not hear sound, etc.” One is something like, “I don’t see color. I see light, and my eye and brain interpret it as color.”. One is making an analogy, saying “It’s like a color blind man saying ‘I don’t see color, therefore no one sees color’”.

[aldiboronti]

Just say ‘I’m color blind’ and leave it at that. If they’re the sort to bridle and angrily say, ‘What do you mean by that?’ say to them ‘I mean I’m literally color blind’. This gives you the opportunity to back away and go find someone more pleasant to converse with.

[Measure_for_Measure]

@Captain_Amazing

The stuff in the 20s isn’t racial, though. They tend to be philosophical books about actually seeing color. One’s a book of Indian philosophy that includes “I do not see color, I do not hear sound, etc.” One is something like, “I don’t see color. I see light, and my eye and brain interpret it as color.”. One is making an analogy, saying “It’s like a color blind man saying ‘I don’t see color, therefore no one sees color’”.

Good point. I did see a relevant entry from 1999 that might be worth quoting: [INDENT][INDENT] I do not believe that this country has ever been color blind, and frankly I do not believe that it ever will be, but I also do not despair about that because I do not see color blindness in and of itself as a goal. The question is not whether we see color or race or ethnicity. The question is, having seen it, how do we treat one another ? This is not about blindness, it is about seeing and then doing justice. THEODORE SHAW, ASSOCIATE DIRECTOR - COUNSEL OF THE NAACP LEGAL … [/INDENT][/INDENT] There is a minister quoted in 1972 who claimed not to see color in the racial sense during some hearing.