Is the Political Glass Ceiling Broken, Cracked, or Intact?

Great Debates
41

And what, exactly, am I? Or does a scientist at the CEA not live up to your exacting standards?

OK, so that’s one.

Who wasn’t given due credit when the Nobel prizes were handed out, faced a hostile work environment at the Cavendish, had to put her own career on hold to follow her husband and only got the recognition she deserved after her divorce (I know Prof. Bell-Burnell, I’ve talked to her about the issues of women in science on many an occasion, her struggles against the glass ceiling and the struggles of many other women that she’s talked to on the same subject.). I know the woman, and your assertation that there is no glass ceiling would have her rolling in the aisles.

And I’m telling you that the number of successful men is far far far greater. And in disproportionate numbers to the number of male and female postgraduates and postdocs.

Yes, because a 4nd century scholar has so much relevance to right now.

You wouldn’t. You’re a man. You don’t experience the same discrimination. Its like you saying that racism doesn’t exist because you’ve never experienced it.

Do you know just how many women I know who’ve worked day and night, who’ve sacrificed their home lives, who’ve lived in different countries, different continents, different hemispheres to their spouses/partners/loved ones, who’ve put off having children till they were in their 40s and had established careers? And who, at the end of the day, have still been denied tenure, permanent positions etc because of their gender? For you to suggest that we don’t have the same drive, desire and determination is frankly ridiculous and you know not of what you speak. Speaking for myself, I’ve had to prove myself to be twice as able, twice as determined, have a longer publication list, be a PI on more international projects, win more international observing time and work longer hours than any man I know at the same stage in my field. I’m think that Jennyrosity’s right, and arguing the toss with you on this is like pissing into the wind.

Oh and your assertation that I’m somehow holding myself back due to the perception of a glass ceiling is frankly laughable, which, if you knew me, my work ethic or anything like that, you’d know. I give up, I have papers to write.

42

Not only was there a glass ceiling, but your claims that men are more suited to positions such as a company director and your feeble argument that people doing the equivalent job don’t deserve the same salary are great examples of just how the ceiling persists today.

43

I had no idea where you work.

I said that you need those qualities as well as raw ability, not that they were lacking in women. And it applies to men just as much as women. No one could accuse Margaret Thatcher, for example, of such, could they? Nor Tony Blair.

I’l treat your contempt with the remark it deserves.

44

And I yours. I think that finishes our exchange. No point arguing with the bigoted after all.

45

Not devils advocate, but an effort to move the conversation forward.

Lets say we pick 100 CEO’s appointments, of which 5 are women, 95 are men.

Each person was appointed based on being determineed by those assessing the candidates as the best person available for the job.

Individually, you can say that there is no glass ceiling.

however if you look at the appointments as a whole, it certainly appears top be heavily weighted towards men. would that be evidence enough to suggest the existence of a glass ceiling?

46

It’s not that simple at all. If a business won’t hire a woman because they’re concerned she’ll have children, that’s not business, it’s personal. If they try to affect the business vs. kids decision, that’s not business, it’s personal. It’s true that being out of the workforce can make it harder to get a job, but that’s not the only issue here.

47

So what? Equality of opportunity does not mean equality of result.

At each step up the pyramid, there are fewer and fewer places. Some people resent that. It’s a commonplace that when passed by someone in a swankier car than yours, the American will say, “Someday I’ll own that car.” whereas the Briton will say, “Rich bastard” or words to that effect. It’s a cross between the politics of envy and the victim culture - “X is doing better than me so X must have an unfair advantage.”

48

You cut out this sentence “by those assessing the candidates as the best person available for the job.”

this is the human nature element of assesing best candidate and it is subject to human bias. Positions are not picked by computer (at least, not until I get the world governments to submit to my will under threat of my doomsday device), and as such there is always a possibility of bias (knowing or unknowing) to influence the decision. This is what leads to a glass ceiling.

If you’re looking for a job, perhaps you should consider becoming a decorator, you’d get efficent results paining with that large brush you wield.

49

I disagree: it’s a business decision. It helps if you look at businesses as psychopaths. Is it really in the business’s interest to hire someone who could disappear at short notice? Same as a job-hopper.

50

I never said that there wasn’t one, and I very firmly believe that there is one. It isn’t as low or as impermeable as it used to be, but as long as people are questioning a person’s ability to take on a particular role because of their gender then it quite definitely exists. Furthermore, I find your implication that it’s all in the victims’ minds more than a little insulting.

There’s also this:

That’s a pretty dubious comparison by any standard. You’re taking a very specific partial situational and anecdotal comparison and using it to disprove a very big, very broad argument. Yes, you have an employment gap, just like some women. But if you didn’t have that gap, would prospective employers hesitate to employ you because you might require a career break at some unspecified time in the future based entirely on your gender or some other trait completely unrelated to your ability to do the job? “Oh, we’d better not hire Quartz - he’s got a beard* and might want a year off with pay to sculpt it.”

Furthermore (to address an earlier point), just because some women have been elected to office does not negate the existence of gender-based barriers. Margaret Thatcher, for example, achieved her lofty position in spite of the barriers, not because they don’t exist.You might well as say that because Condoleeza Rice and Clarence Thomas have reached high office racial discrimination doesn’t exist. It’s bad logic.

But “job-hopping” is an individual trait; it is a pattern of behaviour that a particular person exhibits. Discriminating against all women, on the other hand, is…well, let’s put it this way: if any employers think like you do - and they do - then you’ve just definitively demonstrated that the glass ceiling exists.

  • I don’t know if you still have the beard or not - it’s just an example.
51

What Gyrate said. If the end result of your view is that businesses are allowed to refuse to hire a woman, or at least a woman who might have children, on that basis, then you’re supporting a glass ceiling.

52

Quartz,
The truth is that the glass ceiling in current society is both over and understated. Most of the studies showing are flawed for two reasons:
[ol][li]They do not take into account family choices (time off for birth, choosing shorter hours because of family issues, etc.)Women tend to choose career paths/occupations that pay less such as nurse, teacher, social worker,etc.[/li][/ol]
Studies that look just in one field tend to find that women without children have little or no wage and advacement gap compared to men.

That said, it really only pushes the question “Why the gender difference?” back one level. While direct discrimination does exist, although it has definitely decreased, the real issues are more societal. Why do more women than man choose career paths that pay less but are more personally fulfilling or flexible? Why are women expected to take more time off from work to raise children? These issues are things that need to be considered on a wider level than the more obvious direct discrination.
To bring this back close to the original topic, look a Sarah Palin. It was considered highly unusual that she went back to work a few days after the birth of her last child. If she was male, it would be normal. California is unusual in that it gives fathers and mothers both six weeks of bonding time with new children (birth or adoption), but even here it is much more common for women to take it.

53

The Glass Escalator: Hidden Advantages for Men in the “Female” Professions

This was something that I found interesting in a Sociology class a few years ago. I had run into some discrimination when I was volunteer at an elementary school that basically pushed me toward older grades. I think it just goes to show how people’s socialized gender attitudes tend to cause the gender gap even when there is no active effort towards gender discrimination.

Jonathan

54

Ergo no actual glass ceiling.

55

If:
(1) Women tend to choose careers with lower social status, and
(2) Women with children suffer handicaps in their careers relative to men,
then there is a glass ceiling.

The “glass ceiling” is not an unbreakable barrier, but symbolises the various social factors holding women back from leadership positions.

56

You really can’t bear to let yourself see it, can you? I can understand that. It was and still is very hard for me to accept the degree of racism there has been too. Only actually, what you’ve been saying is, yes, there is a ceiling, but it’s been for a business reason, a good reason, nothing personal. It’s not that you don’t like women. It’s just that they’re inherently less profitable. They haven’t earned it, or they’re not going to earn it.

For people living in the real world, I don’t think the glass celing is cracked. I think it’s a sieve or a strainer. Every year, every decade it becomes a little easier for women to slip through. I think we’re in the throes of a bit of a throwback at the moment, simply because I think romance is in fashion, hence more societal sexual dimorphism in things like fashion, dancing, etc. But I don’t think it’s serious or permanent unless the Christian right and/or people like Quartz are able to get a good grip and run with it. Both Clinton and Palin have made a small difference, but not much, any more than Obama has made or will make any real dent in racism. People who hold X-ist views have more room in their philosophy for the occasional exception than they have for the idea that their X-ist views might be wrong. And even better, they have ways of showing you that the X who appears to be succeeding is “actually” failing miserably.

57

You missed the second part of my post. To elaborate, the glass ceiling is not a mater of official company policy. That would not be a “glass” ceiling. It has become less and less (at least in most areas) a result of direct discrimination, e.g. promoting men over when because you are afraid they are going to get pregnant (which is what you mentioned). Rather it is due to a social expectation that women put family and relationships first and that men are primary providers who should seek high paying jobs while women are free to seek fullfilment (via family and “nurturing” careers).

What this means in practical terms is that the problem can no longer be addressed by pushing for policy changes of specific companies or sueing for discrimination. It now needs to be addressed by society as a whole. Such things as the UK’s parental leave laws are things a government can do, but as long as the general public views the roles of men an women differntly, the glass ceiling is still there.

58

You keep mentioning this as if it explains why, in your view, there is no glass ceiling. It doesn’t, and no one is taking issue with the idea in principle. What’s being argued here with you is why there is an imbalance. Some are arguing that the glass ceiling is external; you’re arguing that it’s internal, a matter of perception on the part of women that gives real effect to an imaginary thing.

You still haven’t answered my earlier question: do you think there ever was a real (i.e., external) glass ceiling?

59

[QUOTE=I think we’re in the throes of a bit of a throwback at the moment, simply because I think romance is in fashion, hence more societal sexual dimorphism in things like fashion, dancing, etc. [/QUOTE]

The economy also has something to do with it. Some women are apparently leaving the work force to become house wives (with or without children). Some data suggests that this has more to do with losing a job or not finding the right kind of job(this was about upper middle class college graduates with high earning spouses) and then rationalization taking over.

60

Then you are misinterpreting me. Angua was commenting on the different ratios of each gender at her level and the highest levels. Just because the ratio is 50% (or whatever) at her level doesn’t mean that it’s 50% at other levels.

Ah right. Yes. Very well put. I see women succeeding left, right, and centre. Men too. It’s easy for people to blame their lack of success on external forces, when it’s simply down to them.

In the West, not in modern times.