After a long talk with my wife recently i have come to a shocking conclusion. Women
constantly argue that the metaphoric “glass ceiling” of prejudice keeps them from
advancing into the higher pay and mostly male dominated jobs. I, on the other hand,
find woman just as critical of a man that tries to break out of his traditional role as man
of the house, or the bread winner…
For instance a woman who stays home all day taking care of maintianing the household
while earning no income is a “housewife” very respectable…
A man who tries the same, is labled a “bum”. A woman can stay in a part-time job with
little or no opportunity of advancement her whole life, and provides a second income for
the family…my, my, very noble. Men are considered to be “spinning thier wheels” or just
plain lazy…
Is this a double standard?
Todays women want all the privledges of a man, but none of the responsibilities.
Countdown to removal to Great Debates…
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Yer pal,
Satan
This sounds more like a Great Debate (or a thread for the BBQ Pit if it gets too rancorous) than it does a General Question.
As it is here in GQ for the moment, let me point out that I thought you were doing fine, loadtoad, until you got here
That one broad, sweeping, overgeneralization lost you most of your presumed sincerity and earned you lots of scorn.
Ignoring that last line, have you noticed any women who actually condemned a genuine “Mr. Mom”? Or has most of the condemnation and ridicule actually come from guys? If it is guys that are scorning house-husbands, you can hardly claim that the women have a double standard. If the women are ridiculing the house-husband, you have a right to challenge those women and their commitment to equality. (You will still not have determined the all women have the same issues.)
Tom~
Hey, look! A OP from the 70’s just popped out of a time warp.
Being a “Mr Mom” has become a status symbol.
Wish I could do it, but alas, I’m old and fat. 
Peace,
mangeorge (Yearning for something)
I only know two things;
I know what I need to know
And
I know what I want to know
Mangeorge, 2000
Okay Okay, if this where in GD or in the BBQ Pit I would comment…but since it’s not I will maintain civility…
The statement that women today want all of the rights of a man
and none of the responsibilities is a, unfortunately true
statement. But i feel it needs to be discussed on its own, so i
will retract it for now so that we may get down to the heart of
the original question.
Also I need to reiterate that I am talking about most women not
all women…
[[The statement that women today want all of the rights of a man and none of the responsibilities is a, unfortunately true
statement.]]
Ain’t true for me. We all should have the same rights and the same responsibilities. It does bug me a bit when people talk about “mothers” being the ones who face the quandry about whether to stay home with kids, instead of “parents.”
Jill
Duh
What in the flaming blue HELL are you talking about? I’ve known several “househusbands” who stayed home and cooked and cleaned and took care of the kids while Mom was out bringing home the bacon. I don’t think of them as bums, nobody I know thinks about them as bums, and they sure as hell don’t think of themselves as bums! On the other hand, the glass ceiling is alive and well in just about any industry you care to name. I want all the priviledges of being male, and I’m willing to take the responsibility, but I do not want to be stuck with all the responsibilities and none of the priviledges! Get it!? So, yes it’s a double standard, but not in the way you’re thinking. Since this isn’t the BBQ Pit, I’ll spare you the rest of what I was going to post. Have a nice day.
An infinite number of rednecks in an infinite number of pickup trucks shooting an infinite number of shotguns at an infinite number of road signs will eventually produce all the world’s great works of literature in Braille.
thanks jillgat. its nice to know your out there
Many woman that i talk to(at much personal peril)over this
subject become very angry. I think that most woman i talk
to(most) feel as if the discrimination for advancement they face
in the work place is the fault of the dominate male upper
echelons.
My main question is,why do woman place so much pressure on
men to succeed? I’m also finding that allot of the woman have
many inequalities forced upon them by their own attitudes.
Most women in my age group 29+ will accept lower wages for
the same job. I have a friend and his sister in law with almost
the exact same qualifications. She has slaved away at her job
for 3 years now earning a third of what he does. He has
advanced his position by transferring company to company until
he felt he was being fairly rewarded for his labors. (she remains
a disgruntled women’s libber) Now, I won’t say I’ve done a
cross section analysis of ALL woman in the work place but I’ve
spent a number of years working all over the U.S. and my
feeling is woman put us in our place (and their own) more than
men have.
What in the flaming blue HELL are you talking about? I’ve
known several “househusbands” who stayed home and cooked
and cleaned and took care of the kids while Mom was out
bringing home the bacon. I don’t think of them as bums, nobody
I know thinks about them as bums…
Now the reason for the question revolves around my own need
for transferring to Mr. Mom status…While in the service, my
wife went to school to become an RN…after I was medically
discharged (nothing debillitating mind you) I became self
employed. After our son came along it has become clear that we
need the medical insurance her job provides. and at present, my
own paycheck might be able to barely affornd a full time care
giver for our child let alone insurance. So why don’t I stay
home and be Mr. MOM? The women sneer and scoff , my
mother in law has repeatedly asked when I am going to start
putting in the 80 hours a week it would take for my wife to stay
at home full time. The majority of male friends I have seem
sceptical until I explain the whole money thing to them then
they understand and stop harrasing me ;>). Women on the other
hand seem confused at best "why doesn’t he just get another
job? ", they ask. At worst, they use lazy and bum right off the
bat. I can provide for my family just as well as my wife could in
this role!!!
loadtoad;
For your perusal, the Board of Directors at Chevron Corporation the co. I work for;
David J. O’Reilly, (2)
Chairman of the Board and Chief Executive Officer, Chevron Corporation
Richard H. Matzke
Vice Chairman, Chevron Corporation
James N. Sullivan
Vice Chairman, Chevron Corporation
Samuel H. Armacost, (3, 4)
Managing Director, Weiss, Peck & Greer L.L.C.
Sam Ginn, (1, 3)
Chairman of the Board and Chief Executive Officer, VodaFone AirTouch PLC
Carla A. Hills, (2, 4)
Chairman and Chief Executive Officer, Hills & Company International Consultants
J. Bennett Johnston, (1, 2)
Chief Executive Officer, Johnston & Associates
Charles M. Pigott, (3, 4)
Chairman Emeritus and Director, PACCAR Inc
Condoleezza Rice, (2, 4)
Provost and Vice President, Stanford University
Frank A. Shrontz, (1, 3)
Director, Chevron Corporation
Chang-Lin Tien, (1, 3)
Director, Chevron Corporation
John A. Young, (1, 2)
Vice Chairman of the Board, Novell, Inc.
Oh, my goodness. Where are all the “girls”.
Check the lists for some other major american corporations. Just type the name of the company into your browser. Only in some of new, high-tech companies will you find a significant difference.
Peace,
mangeorge
Businesses owned by women generated $1.6 trillion in business revenues and employed 13.2 million people in 1992.
http://falcon.nji.com/~vera/business.htm
Now, this isn’t an in depth study by any means but I do know many woman business owners… and I would be interested in seeing the actual figure for say those companies based from the U.S. and the progression of woman into higher positions over the last ten years or so…Anyone, anyone??? Ill’ keep looking
Hmmm… my husband and I have virtually identical resumés and it’s hard to think of any privileges or responsibilities he’s been keeping to himself. As far as I can tell, we’ve faced the same opportunities and risks, and have both ended up where we’ve wanted to be.
So… either something’s wrong with me and the others posting here, or you’re making foolish generalizations when you presume to know what WOMEN want and don’t want.
Perhaps some working women feel they deserve more money, but as you’ve pointed out, some home-making men want more credit as well. Why not just kill these “women vs. men” debates and give everyone the respect they deserve?
Ah, women’s lib, or was it women’s lip? Just kidding. Hey, I was there.
I thought it was a great idea, it’s kind of brought us a unisex role model. Where those with the proper intelligence can see a person for their individualism.
But it brought confusion too. Some women want to be protected, others want to protect. If you want to know if a woman is which, just ask her.
Countdown delayed by board outage. 7654321 liftoff.
Livin’ on Tums, vitamin E and Rogaine
I’m a woman who has kids and works outside the home.
I have nothing but respect for people (male or female) who stay at home and raise kids. I work because I find it fullfilling, and because, frankly, its easier than chasing two small children and keeping house.
I’m also at the top of my department’s org chart in my company. I got there in a “male” fashion - switching jobs, asking for raises. And I got lucky in that I had a boss who promoted me without checking for a Y chromosome. But I did leave several companies where I would have run into a glass ceiling - its real (metaphorically speaking), it exists.
I have noticed a few things that could be indications of what Loadtoad is talking about. For instance, when my female friend stayed at home, she felt like a failure because the house was never clean and she didn’t bake her own bread. When it became her husbands turn, he felt much more successful - the house wasn’t as clean, I don’t think he ever baked bread, but he had lots of fun taking the kids to the park. Different expectations on their part. I thought both of them did a great job!
Another couple: He was unfulfilled at work, because he thought he should “go places” and wasn’t, where she had different expectations. That glass ceiling was there to take blame if she didn’t climb the ladder. Their expectations, not mine.
Since Loadtoad withdrew his “rights and responsiblities” statement, I won’t point out that its WRONG (at least in my case).
This might just be an unappreciated restatement of the OP, but I thought I would throw it out there.
My own experience in schools and jobs with regard to the treatment of men and women has been this: For the most part it’s really pretty much the same, but more is expected of the men, and less of the women (generally speaking). If a given person, male or female, is capable of doing a job better than anyone else, then any employer with an ounce of sense and desire to stay in business will hire or promote that person, regardless of their gender (or race for that matter). Most businesses really don’t see gender, they only see their bank accounts.
What this means (again all my personal experience only) is that when a man succeeds at something – gets a promotion, gets a raise, gets an A+ – no one really notices: “nothing odd about that, he’s a man, he’s got all the advantages, he was supposed to succeed.”
When a woman succeeds, the (unspoken) reaction is, “Wow, she must be something special,” even though she may have done nothing more than any other person (read: male) might have done.
OTOH, if a man doesn’t succeed, then he’s a bum. If a woman doesn’t succeed, then “the men were all keeping her down” – somehow it wasn’t her fault. I think that’s what loadtoad was talking about when he lamented the disappearance of responsibility.
I sure hope I can remember my password . . .<P>Let us all agree that there is a definitive glass ceiling. This, by the way, is a generalization. It’s not applicable to all women, but most. The woman mentioned earlier in the thread who is earning 1/3 of what some guy is earning? No one, male or female, is going to make what they’re worth in business these days unless they change jobs regularly.<P>Now, addressing the point of the thread, “Why do men and women both have a double standard that men are supposed to work, period. If someone stays home with the kids it’s gonna’ be Mom.” Not to put a damper on things, but this is not the only area in which there exists a double standard. Many women will absolutely refuse to pay for anything on a first date. Some who will, won’t go out with the same guy again. I don’t have a source, but I read it yesterday in the online classifieds. Men are EXPECTED to pay - women will not. The list goes on.<P>To draw a parallel, let’s talk for a minute about affirmative action. There are several aspects to affirmative action which are good. It certainly helps minorities break into the good-old-boy-network. (That IS the technical term.) However, some people (I’m one of them) feel that the time has come that is not as affective as it once was and may indeed be harming the very minorities it is supposed to be supporting.<P>I don’t know any militant feminists, but I dare say they rather a man did not open a door for them. Until men and women share equally in who pays for the first date (or figure out some way to make it more objective) and women start openning doors for men as much as men do for women, the deprecating attitudes in our culture will continue to recreate themselves.<P>I hope that makes any sense.
Women make 79 cents for every dollar a guy makes but a deaf person makes 79 cents for every dollar a woman makes.
“Men are like parking spaces, the available ones are handicapped.”