Where’s the HTML? Don’t tell me I gotta’ learn that UBB crap…<P>…Moving right along, I just read the rest of the thread and was really surprised by the post by sixsetport. Dude, I don’t think that that is what is being said at all. And as a matter of fact what you are effectively saying is that a woman is not as good as a man. Your SO must really love you for that one. Let’s see if I follow this, because there really is no glass ceiling because people only get promoted by the numbers in the general ledger and as we survey the current state of business where there is a definitive lack of female presence, then it must be due to their lack of ability? You are wrong. …<P>… I want my HTML!!!
Women make less than men. Women are also less likely to ask for a raise than men (I could go cite the dozens of studies if you really doubt this). These facts are not debatable, the only debate is over the ‘why’. I’m not interested in either victimizing women or villifying men - I suspect the OP is.
My WAG:
Many women think equality is something you should get - rather than something you scramble for. It is not easy to ask for a raise. When I finally decided I needed one, it still took two days to get up the courage to go and tell my boss. But I did it - maybe as much because I want to fit this society’s conception of being a man as much as I want the actual money - but nevertheless I went and did it. And I only had to tell him once - I really think that once an employer recognizes that you are someone who will demand what is due to them that you will not have to demand it again - man or woman.
If you are underpaid, man or woman - don’t gripe - tell the only person who can do something about it! If they don’t care, perhaps you need to re-evaluate your own worth, or you need to look for another job.
As far as men staying at home with the kids - I hope to marry a woman who makes so much money I will be able to do this. I don’t really care what anyone thinks about it, either. If some people are so bigoted and ignorant that they wish to slander me for finding joy in fatherhood then fuck 'em.
I would just like to point out that this is not something that is a “deficiency” on the part of women (I did not think you meant it that way, Cooper, just commenting), though it is definitely an impedance in corporate culture. Males and females are raised with certain subtle and not-so-subtle societal forces pushing them towards certain behaviors and attitudes. Women are often taught that it’s “not nice” to compete fiercely, that you should always cooperate with everyone, and you shouldn’t obviously ask for what you want. It’s tough to buck that conditioning–even if your parents raised you to defy a lot of society’s implicit “rules”, you’ll still pick them up from everybody else. Honestly, I’ll be asking for a raise in a few months, and one of the things making me hesitant is that money’s been tight around the company–it just doesn’t seem “nice” to ask for more. Hardly a go-getter attitude!
I’m not complaining; I don’t think I have a “glass ceiling” at my workplace, just a culture that rewards behavior I have been subtly taught to eschew. The corporate structure is built on a highly masculine-influenced culture of competition. I’ll have to ask for what I think I deserve, and it’s going to be hard for me. But that’s the way things are. Perhaps someday we can create a corporate culture that allows for the full use of the talents of all people, instead of penalizing some for attitudes that aren’t inferior–just different. For now, we can raise awareness of the differences between the sexes, and an acceptance of them, so that men can better understand how women see the world, and women can better understand how men see the world. It would cut down on misunderstandings like a woman doing good work in hopes of being given a raise, and her boss thinking “Gee, she’s doing good work–I wonder why she’s not asking for a raise or promotion? She must not want it!” Such a situation could breed resentment on the part of the woman, and then the boss could get angry at her for her resentment over what he sees as a ridiculous expectation. (And of course, not all women and not all men will be as influenced by stereotypes of what they “should” do–there are aggressive, competitive women who strive fiercely for advancement, and men who are diffident about the whole “rat race” thing.)
See–your culture tells you to make lots of money, ask for raises, etc. Women don’t have that pushing them as much, really, for good or bad–I think things would work out better if men weren’t pushed to achieve financially or risk being thought inferior. That’s not fair either. The stereotypical perceptions of male and female hold back many members of both sexes.
[edited to fix typo that reversed the meaning of a statement–G]
[Note: This message has been edited by Gaudere]
Gaudere: just wanted to say that I appreciate that you understood my post in the context in which I meant it. This is really a thorny issue, and it goes very deep, to such philosophical concepts as: how much is enough - and is any amount of money ‘enough’, ‘fair’ etc.
When I said that I felt like I had to ask for a raise to feel like a man I really mean that - and while this conditioning may favor men financially I don’t think finances are all important in the total quality-of-life picture. The same conditioning that makes women hesitant to ask for a raise benefits them in other ways, and I think ignoring this contributes to the feeling that conditions are less-than-equal (though it may not account entirely for it).
Double standards, eh? I’ve been living with them all my life. It’s not that you are wrong, exactly, it’s just that there is so much that you can’t see. Since the age of fourteen, when I began doing volunteer work, through various jobs and up to the present, I have felt something suble yet definately there at workplaces that has to do with the fact that I am a woman. It’s not overt, and it’s not anything that I expect an outsider to feel, but it is there. I am still the woman in the man’s domain.
It still is a man’s domain. Women who work are seen as novelties and their attepts at sucess are “cute”. Any woman that does suceed is really something special. You never hear people saying “Bill Gates suceeded, and he is a MAN.” Thats because the framework is built around men. We are forign bodies. We are exeptions.
I am a filmmaker and whenever I watch a movie I stay through the credits and clap silently for all the women (especially women in technical roles) listed. There arn’t that many. I know that in my work I will have to work twice as hard and be taken half as seriously. I know it the same way that one knows not to walk in a seedy neighborhood at night. It is second nature. It is ingrained. It is scary. And this is the future I am stepping into…
So what do I want? I want to kick ass at what I do. I will grant you that a lot of women don’t seem to know what they want. That isn’t supriseing. You just can’t see how many different things we are supposed to be. We are supposed to be sexy but we can’t be sexual. We have to suceed but if we do we are "trying to prove something by acting like a man (can’t tell you how many times I have heard that one) and we have to be assetive to get what we want but when we do we are bitchy. It’s no wonder we get confused…all of the things ecpected of us contradict each other!
Finally, on being responsible, I am a college student and I work damn hard. When my mom was my age she was a college student, too. She also had a kid. She also went to work to support herself and that kid. All this without a man in sight. And to think…I complain about having too much work to do.
When you live your whole life as a woman then I will believe you when you purport to know what women think.
I don’t know where you get this idea. I’m constantly telling my husband he has too much on his plate and he’s going to kill himself from working too hard when he doesn’t even need to. You personally I couldn’t care less about, so don’t blame me! Guys put the pressure on themselves; it’s genetic or something. That’s why there are so many more guys than women on the Millionaire show. They can’t pass up a chance to be better than somebody else at something. (This is my theory, which is mine! – Miss A. Elk)
She has an IQ of 1001, she has a jumpsuit on – she’s also a telephone
Maybe one day I’ll feel her cold embrace, and kiss her interface – until then, I’ll leave her alone
I work outside my home during the day. My husband stays home and raises our children. He doesn’t “take care of the kids”–he’s not a babysitter. He’s their father. It’s his job. I keep the roof over our heads, and all the bills paid. Not much left over, but I’m not starving.
No one else in my family has ever done it this way. A few members of my family expressed some dismay, in fact. As if my husband was a leech, not having a day job (he’s a musician). To them I said “Hey, if I was the one staying home, and he was the one working, would you call me a leech? No. You’d call me traditional.” That effectively shut them up. Now, some of my uncles tell me “Man…I wish I had had the opportunities your husband has.” I wish they did too.
I wish discrimination, in all forms, would just go away. The raised eyebrows I’ve gotten at times when I tell people about my household make me so angry. This has nothing to do with “women’s lib,” really. My household ended up this way because it was the best way for us. If my husband made enough to support us, and had the benefits I have, I’d consider staying home. I’d consider it. I do enjoy working outside my home, though, so it would be a tough decision.
Changing my sig, because Wally said to, and I really like Wally, and I’ll do anything he says, anytime he says to.
Yea, Cristi!!!
Now that I’ve got that out of the way…
I don’t think loadtoad is trying to oppress women, or make sweeping unfounded generalization. I think he’s reporting life as he observes it.
I think women are cut a lot more slack in the workplace than men are because women are generally expected to take care of the children. Let’s face it, when was the last time you saw a man take time off work to care for a sick child, single fathers excepted? Also, men don’t take pregnancy leave.
Women as a rule make less money than men because they tend to take jobs that allow them the time they need to take care of their children.
As a woman, I have never felt that I was discriminated in the workplace as far as pay raises and promotions were concerned. As a matter of fact, I recently voluntarily removed myself from the management fast track because I didn’t feel that the extra pay was worth the aggravation that came with the responsibility. (There’s a lot of that going around at the company I work for, and it’s not a “woman thing”- several of my male co-workers have made the same decision)
I think, as a couple of posters have asserted, that part of the so-called glass ceiling problem is that women are not as aggressive in seeking raises and promotions as men our. But that is our choice, not a function of male oppression. Another reason women are frequently passed over in this area is that we are frequently not as willing to put in extra hours at work, usually because of family and child care concerns, which are traditionally considered a woman’s domain.
I’m with Cristi. Right now, I’m single and not currently dating anyone, and not looking to get married. I personally don’t want to get married until I’m making enough money to support a husband who will stay home, cook, keep house and look after the rugrats. And if anyone think my would-be future husband is a bum for choosing to be a “Mr. Mom”, they can go perform anatomically impossible sexual acts upon themselves.
The trouble with Sir Launcelot is by the time he comes riding up, you’ve already married King Arthur.
Is there some part of “Patriarchy is an historical fact” that someone wishes to debate?
There has been substantial progress towards equality, no doubt about that. But to start such a thread with the rather troll-like header “woman’s lib bah!”?? Do you wish to make the claim that the liberation of women was not until extremely recent history something that needed accomplishing, and which had not, as of that time, been accomplished? If not, then we are only arguing about how “there” the feminists are, whether the women have arrived or are still in the process of. (If so, on the other hand, the trollishness of starting such a thread strikes me as self-evident).
I take it for granted that the ultimate purpose of the feminist movement is to make itself unnecessary and irrelevant. If you think this is pretty close to how things are, give them a round of applause for what they have accomplished.
But the ‘age’ ain’t postfeminist until it’s postpatriarchal.
Disable Similes in this Post
Loadtoad–If your in-laws are giving you the business about staying home, it is your wife’s responsibility to take care of their misconcpetions. The easiest way for her to do this is to brag on you a lot. I am giving you the benefit of the doubt here, and assuming that you are in fact doing a good job. She needs to tell them things like: “Toad is so good with the kids. I think that having time like this with their father when they are young is just priceless–they are forming the type of father-daughter bond [father-son, whatever] that so many people never manage because Dad is always at work.” ; “Lordy, I don’t know how I managed before Toad took over the house. There is nothing like coming home after a 10 hour day and realizing that someone ELSE has already done the grocery shopping and dinner is ready. No wonder you men wanted to keep this to yourselves all those years! )” ; “Toad is a much better bugeter than I ever was–our grocery bill has droped down 20% since he took over.” When your wife’s family sees that she is happy with the situation (assuming that she is) they will adjust.
A side rant. Above I assumed that you are doing a great job. It might not be a bad idea to do a periodic self audit to make sure that you are. The reason I say this is because I have known a few individuals (both sexes) who really were just no good at home. These are people who do not self motivate well. As an example, a guy I know, a good friend, tried playing “Mr. Mom” for a while but it really did not work. He spent most of the day on the computer, so when his wife came home, tired and cranky, she still had to go to the store, do the dishes, help the child with homework, do the bookkepping, etc. He was doing some stuff, but he seemed to have the idea that house work was still split 50/50, when it really should have been split 80/20. This can put a lot of tension in a relationshipp, when one person is feeling guilty and the other resentful and tired. So pay attention to what your wife soes in the evenings. If she is doing signifigant house work, she is probably NOT happy, and that is why the on-laws are upset.
Cooper wrote:
Well … I’m debating them. 
One thing I heard about 4 years ago was that the national average female annual income is less than the national average male annual income, but these figures include people who don’t make any money (e.g. housewives, Mr. Moms, and the guy holding up the “will work for food” cardboard sign).
Supposedly, if you only count employed people, the national average female salary is just as high as the national average male salary. Unfortunately, I only “heard” this, and I have no citations to back it up.
So, Cooper: Could you cite one of the dozens of studies saying otherwise? A web link would be the most useful means of citation, of course.
This is perhaps not the best example, but it is one that I already knew about and can recite from memory. Microsoft Certified Professional Magazine conducts an annual salary survey of employed IT professionals.
If you go to http://www.mcpmag.com/members/99jul/fea1a.asp
and from the drop down box select salaries by gender you will see this comparisan. From this page:
Tracer, I don’t know where you read what you did but it is completely and totally wrong. The IT industry is actually less stratified than most, I believe in many professions the difference is closer to 20% for same job title.
Not at all. What I said (please read it again) is that often not as much is EXPECTED of women as of men.
She knows exactly how I feel, and agrees with me. She is a captain with a unit command in the Army Reserves, and an elementary school teacher working towards her PhD. Her degree is in school pyschology: she basically specialized in this subject. To top it off, her mother is a separatist feminist (her motto: “men bad, women good” – I’m not kidding).
That’s what any businessman, er, person, who wants to stay in business does. Hiring someone based on their gender and not on their ability will lose you money in the long run.
As I look around my office right now, I can see about 18 women and 3 men. The overall ratio in my company is about 60-40 women to men. In the 3 offices I’ve working in the last 5 years, the numbers have been roughly the same, closer to even in one case.
I see your logic but your premises are flawed. Anyway, like I said, everything I stated was based on my personal experience, and not to be taken as a blanket statement.