Is the Pope seeking to end the Great Schism?

Great Debates
1

From the London Times:

The story goes on to say that Benedict has called a meeting of cardinals from all over the world in Rome next week to discuss the document, which among other things suggests a new ecumenical council of Catholic and Orthodox bishops to attempt to fomally end the Great Schism of 1054.

Now, a couple of caveats: first of all, the reporter, Ruth Gledhill, has been known to exaggerate the significance of other events in the church (see her reporting on the Anglican mess). Also, this agreement was made between Rome and Constantinople - the Russian Orthodox Church was not involved. Still, if true, it would be the biggest development in Christianity since the Protestant Reformation.

And speaking of the Protestant Reformation, there is also this news from the Telegraph:

Count me as a conservative Anglican who, if the Orthodox and Catholic Churches were to ever re-unify, would be on their doorstep in a second. Unfortunately, this could take decades or generations if it happens at all.

So for you ecclesiologists out there – what’s your reaction?

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[QUOTE=Skammer]
Count me as a conservative Anglican who, if the Orthodox and Catholic Churches were to ever re-unify, would be on their doorstep in a second.
[/QUOTE]
Why? I don’t mean it as an attack; i’m just interested to know what it would mean to you (and others).

3

Well, as I affirm every Sunday, “I believe in One, Holy, Catholic, Apostolic Church.” I think the Church’s greatest failure in her history has been her inability to hold together and remain in communion with herself. Although I am a conservative Episcopalian, and tremendously distressed at the state of the US Episcopal Church, I am not one who believes that splitting the Anglican Communion is the right way to go. At the same time, I have some (but not a lot) of qualms about the Roman Catholic church. But if there was significant movement toward unity, I would support that.

But I’m really more interested in talking about what this means for the Church Universal vs. what it means for me personally.

4

i’d be rather surprized. the catholic church seems to think it is an easy fix. the othodox church doesn’t see it that way.

politics alone, i don’t see constantinople giving up “first amoung equals” or rome giving up the power it has.

religious differences would be quite the culture shock for catholics.

i can see the churches going with a live and let live thing vs a if you don’t believe as we do you won’t get to heaven.

5

If it brings more people together I think it’s a good thing.

Under God, that is.

6

I hope they never reconcile, and in fact break up further. Every time Christianity breaks up into smaller, weaker fragments, it’s a blow for human freedom and progress. A more unified and therefore more powerful Christianity will be a powerful force for ignorance, stagnation, tyranny and irrationality.

7

So, does this mean an organizational merger? Would Orthodox bishops be admitted to the College of Cardinals? Would the pope have appointment authority over Orthodox bishoprics?

And what about differences in customs and liturgy and orders of service? Would the Orthodox churches have to install pews?

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[QUOTE=Der Trihs]
I hope they never reconcile, and in fact break up further. Every time Christianity breaks up into smaller, weaker fragments, it’s a blow for human freedom and progress. A more unified and therefore more powerful Christianity will be a powerful force for ignorance, stagnation, tyranny and irrationality.
[/QUOTE]

Or it could be the World Superchurch of the End Tmes.

Jack Chick? Where are you, Jack?

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[QUOTE=Der Trihs]
I hope they never reconcile, and in fact break up further. Every time Christianity breaks up into smaller, weaker fragments, it’s a blow for human freedom and progress. A more unified and therefore more powerful Christianity will be a powerful force for ignorance, stagnation, tyranny and irrationality.
[/QUOTE]

Hi there!

As a former Pagan, I don’t have much of a dog in this fight.

But I will say that while the Catholic church has been working to clear up that pesky “priests liking to diddle young boys” issue, and in the past has not been totally on the up-and-up about certain things, the Catholic church (and Christian churches in general) tend to do a LOT of community service.

As a child, every year for several years we got a food basket from a church that we didn’t attend, for Thanksgiving and Christmas.

If they can get their head into the modern world (quite possible) and clean their house, they can be a great force for good in the world.

10

DOUBLE POST!

DOUBLE POST!

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It’s a corporate merger. RCC is having trouble filling the pews come the weekend so they’re looking at buying up a smaller businesses with a large client base.

Coins gotta hit plates to keep the pope festooned with gold hats and the silence of molested children doesn’t grow on trees.

12

Doubled. Never mind.

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[QUOTE=Tristan]
If they can get their head into the modern world (quite possible) and clean their house, they can be a great force for good in the world.
[/QUOTE]
No, it’s not possible for them to “get their head into the modern world”; their very existence is archaic. And given the fundamental irrationality of their beliefs, it’s inevitable that Christianty will always be a negative force in the world.

14

It would be nice. I hope to see it.

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[QUOTE=Tristan]
If they can get their head into the modern world (quite possible) and clean their house, they can be a great force for good in the world.
[/QUOTE]
Which is precisely why I, an admitted atheist, am perfectly happy to donate, if not the biblical tithe, a substantial portion of my income to my family’s church. My pastor is satisfied that I am a “seeker” and I’m satisfied that I don’t get any shit for it, though I don’t really expect to become more “spiritual” and only have a problem with cleaning up after [del]Mass[/del] [del]services[/del]–whatever the fuck Lutherans call it–because I hate washing dishes. Hell, I used one of those cups and hate to see the lady who is waiting until Medicare kicks in to buy her new hip joints standing when I could.

On the other hand, just when the Lutherans and the Mother Church were extending the laurel branch in 1998, (deleted expletive) JPII announced a millenial indulgence, using the exact word that caused our particular break in 1517. God, ya wanna strangle some people sometimes, dontcha?

OTOH, my brother went Eastern Rite the same time I went the other way, so he’ll be happy as long as it doesn’t make the Russian O any more liberal.

16

[QUOTE=BrainGlutton]
So, does this mean an organizational merger? Would Orthodox bishops be admitted to the College of Cardinals? Would the pope have appointment authority over Orthodox bishoprics?

And what about differences in customs and liturgy and orders of service? Would the Orthodox churches have to install pews?
[/QUOTE]
These are the sort of questions that the study group would attempt to address, so no serious answer is possible at this time.

My guesses would be:

No organizational merger. There would be greater need to get consent among the various patriarchates before declaring something to be doctrine, but there is no need (and no impetus) to merge organizations.

I would guess that Orthodox could be admitted to the College of Cardinals, although that implies that the Orthodox would recognize the Western pope as more than the Bishop of Rome and they may not even wish to participate in any action that would demonstrate a recognition of greater authority by the Bishop of Rome.

Liturgy does not have to change, at all, (unless one group finds the practices of another group to be a bar to unification). There are already many rites within the Church.

[QUOTE=Lobohan]
It’s a corporate merger. RCC is having trouble filling the pews come the weekend so they’re looking at buying up a smaller businesses with a large client base.
[/QUOTE]
I’m sorry, but this is silly. If the Western pope is to be the “Bishop of Rome” and only a “first among equals,” that pretty well implies that the organizations are going to remain pretty much independent, meaning there will be no exchange of funds (or siphoning by one group from another). Estimates of the size of the Orthodox communions range between 150 million and 350 million, which, at the higher end, is barely a third the size of the Catholic communion, with most Orthodox living in previously Marxist countries with a few living in heavily Muslim countries. Even if there was a desire to gain “head count” (and income) by merging with the Orthodox, the Catholics would hardly gain any serious financial advantage.

Further: the Times article makes a few silly claims. Celibacy may stop being required in the RCC some day, but it will not be due to any re-association with the Orthodox. The Uniate churches (who broke away from the Orthodox to join the Catholics) have continued to have a married clergy with no flak from Rome. Celibacy is a Roman Rite discipline that Rome has never claimewd was anything else.

On the other hand, the suggested limits on papal authority (and some form of statement limiting (or redefinaing) papal infallibility would certainly be part of any resolution, but (IMNSHO), it was going to be redefined in a more restrictive manner at some point, anyway.

And, as the Times article points out, the Orthodox are, themselves, hardly unified, with different national churches expressing anything from mild distate to outright hostility toward the actions or positions of other national churches.

17

[QUOTE=dropzone]
On the other hand, just when the Lutherans and the Mother Church were extending the laurel branch in 1998, (deleted expletive) JPII announced a millenial indulgence, using the exact word that caused our particular break in 1517. God, ya wanna strangle some people sometimes, dontcha?
[/QUOTE]
I’m curious what language was used that exacerbated any current rift.

18

Tom, my money is on them becoming co-communicant and cranking the brakes there. There is still too much animosity between the two. (See the all-too-recent difficulties between Orthodox Serbia and Catholic Croatia.)

19

[QUOTE=tomndebb]
I’m curious what language was used that exacerbated any current rift.
[/QUOTE]
The magical “I is for indulgence” word. You’d think it was the 16th century with these guys when you mention them, as they are only familiar with stories of the buying of same.

20

[QUOTE=Skammer]
Well, as I affirm every Sunday, “I believe in One, Holy, Catholic, Apostolic Church.”
[/QUOTE]

If you look in the Book of Common Prayer, you’ll notice the Nicene Creed uses the small c “catholic”. This does not mean only the Roman Catholic Church, but the universal Christian body.

American Heritage dictionary says:

cath·o·lic adj.
Of broad or liberal scope; comprehensive: “The 100-odd pages of formulas and constants are surely the most catholic to be found” (Scientific American).
Including or concerning all humankind; universal: “what was of catholic rather than national interest” (J.A. Froude).

At least that’s what our pastor told us.