OK. There is, indeed, a serious disagreement in Catholic and Lutheran theology behind the concept of indulgences that goes beyond merely the selling of them, (which was a violation of Catholic theology–which did not put a dent in sales, of course).
If someone reacts negatively to the mere mention of indulgence–particularly by invoking the ghosts of the 16th century–I suspect that there is a bit of ignorance at play, but there is no question that it does not require ignorance, only a profound philosophical/theological difference of opinion, to take umbrage at the actual statement JPII issued in 1999.
On yet another hand, I should try the “They’re just like us, except their pope is in Rome, not Park Ridge, Illinois” tack with them. [del]They[/del] We seem ripe for it and the only functional differences between the ELCA and RCC masses are the celebrants may be women, there are songs by Luther and Wesley, and “catholic” is not capitalized in the Apostles Creed. The ELCA is, and this is why I joined it rather than bringing my daughters to the RCC, almost precisely where Vatican II was taking us. The modern RCC causes me to pause because it not only paused but stepped back 35 years.
Oh, and the mojo aspects. Evangelical Lutherans aren’t into the more
superstitious stuff. We’re a buncha Northern Europeans (okay, Norskies) and place them off to the side because they aren’t necessary and are kinda embarassing. But there is a divide a-comin’ between the Missouri Synod Lutherans with the Baptists and the ELCA and the RCC.
Yep! The church has gone corporate, a merge was inevitable. How can the papacy expect to compete in a global world without acquisitions and mergers?
I am sure he will leave the management of all subsidiaries alone until he can hand pick the Bishops to replace anyone not adjusting. Under no circumstances, will there be any rotation of priceless art, solid gold artifacts, or alter boys.
I am sure the cost of holy water will increase.
We sing songs by Wesley at my church, which is pretty conservative. Of course, we also sing Gather Us In times without number, so I don’t think our pastor is terribly concerned with the music.
The cost of holy water will increase? From nothing to… multiples of nothing?
I think even just co-communicant status would be lovely. (Little hijack, quick question) I know that the RCC considers Orthodox churches to have a validly ordained priesthood and valid sacraments. Do the Orthodox churches, in general, not consider the RCC orders valid? I know there’s a problem with Orthodox receiving at Mass, but not the other way around.
the problem with co-communicant would be many-fold. ie: o.c. does not use wafers; there are confession and fasting issues as well. the o.c. does have rather strict rules on communion and will turn away those who don’t meet them.
co-communicant as in communication, speaking to each other… that could and is happening.
oh, yeah, the o.c. is quite the unwieldy church. we are def. different flavours of jello… but when push comes to shove we are jello.
the pat. of constan. is a rather liberal, easy going patriarch, when it comes to canon law and orthodox tradition… he is the usual orthodox standard: “change??? i’ve never heard that word before. obviously we don’t need whatever it is.”
I’m sure every Pope since 1054 has sought to end the Great Schism. The question is whether or not this Pope is prepared to make enough concessions to actually achieve it.
Actually, the Catholic Church does charge for holy water that is bottled in plastic bottles of the Virgin Mary. I have strong memories of this as a kid. They also sell other blessed items and relics. They certainly don’t charge for the holy water at the entrance of church. This is free.
I apologize if I offended your religious beliefs. I was raised Catholic and went to parochial schools. I actually find the possible reunification of the church interesting. I do know that the Orthodox is heavily influenced by eastern culture and evolved into a separate, unique religion, so this will be interesting to watch if the two sides can even compromise to form a common church.
I really should resist your religion-baiting, but this is so exactly wrong that I just can’t.
The Christian Churches have never been so terrible as when they split and saw themselves under siege from dissenters. Just look at the 16th century. Torture and executions of accused heretics and witches. Outright warfare. Just nasty, nasty stuff that simply didn’t nearly as much as in the earlier middle ages when the Roman Catholic Church ruled unquestioned in Western Europe.
Any friend of human rights will welcome any call by the Church for greater religious tolerance, whether or not it comes with an actual institutional merger. The more tolerance the Church demonstrates, the less likely it is to fire up the old-school Inquisition again.
OTOH, when and where the Catholic Church has enjoyed an unchallenged predominance – as in Spain and Latin America from the 16th Century to the early 20th – the results are almost as discouraging: Little “warfare,” but a regime of universal censorship and repression of freedom of thought that inestimably retarded the social, intellectual, scientific and industrial progress of society; with the result that the mostly Protestant UK and U.S. thoroughly and almost effortlessly supplanted Spain as the world’s leading imperial powers.
I am amazed at how incredibly ignorant and mean spirit you are towards the Roman Catholic Church. You speak of aspects of my faith like they mean almost nothing, you really should first seek to wipe your hate and find respect towards catholics, we deserve it just as much as YOU do.
I am sick and tired of how incredibly disrepectful some people are towards my holy church. Just because its “ok” to insult the catholic faith (just like it was acceptable to insult jews and minorities back in the days) does NOT mean its right. I expect more of the people (who I assume are reasonably educated) that frequent these boards.
I respect your choice of faith (or lack of) and you respect mine.
No way. The reason why Latin America has been in the dump while Europe and the U.S. have industrialized and develop are WWAAYY more complicated than their faiths.
Latin America’s problems lie with HORRIBLE leaders, terrible greed, horrible colonial histories, oppressive GOVERNMENTS not church. As a matter of fact, the Roman Catholic church has been, at many cases, the only voice for justice towards the poor. Yet there’s still a huge poverty problem in the region, which goes to show just how the upper class/people in power have turned the other cheek on very Christian ideals of helping the less fortunate
Ah, the return of the Black Legend. If it was the unchallenged predominance of the Catholic church that caused Spain’s decline as an imperial power, how did Catholic Spain become a great power in the first place, then?
I think more of the blame for the decline of Spain can be laid at the feet of runaway inflation, involvement in unneccesary military conflicts, and bad administration.
As far as “universal censorship and repression of freedom of thought”, Salamanca was one of the major, and probably one of the most radical, centers of learning in 16th century Europe. Scholars and theologians there came up with the doctrine of just war, doubted that wars of conquest were ever acceptable, argued that value was determined by the free market, and that it was impossible to state what was moral or immoral with certainty.
Mea culpa! I am genuinely sorry if I offended you or anyone of faith. I am a secularist. I respect the rights of all people to worship their religious beliefs privately and freely.
I think your characterization of me is rather harsh; however, I do understand that religion and faith discussions frequently evoke a defensive and emotional response.
Spain’s decline was also caused by the fate of its royal house. Fernando & Isabella’s only child who lived was Juana. Whether or not she was really mad–her son was the next King of Spain. And the Hapsburg kings spent Spain’s riches on European wars, rather than improving things in Spain. (I believe some scholars in Salamanca were concerned about the economic results of so much gold & silver coming from overseas.)
Yeah, it was a stupid time for Spain to throw out the Jews & Muslims. (Or make them go underground.)
But, for all the real abuses that did occur in The New World–far more of the natives survived in the areas the Spanish conquered. English-settled lands were more efficiently ethnically cleansed.
(To get back on track: I find the efforts to end the Schism quite fascinating. And hopeful.)
That phrase is unfamiliar to me, but you appear to use it as if you had not coined it – is it some well-known meme in Catholic countries?
By being first out of the starting gate (or second, right after Portugal). But note where the scientific and industrial revolutions happened – not in any Catholic country.
If it was the unchallenged predominance of the Catholic church that caused Spain’s decline as an imperial power, how did Catholic Spain become a great power in the first place, then?