42 angels fit on the head of a pin. That is not an opinion, it is a fact.
So how is it that some people think that 43 angels fit on the head of a pin?
Sua, fascinating link, thanks!
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Oh, man! Are some people in for a shock!
Lo peeps, 2 things:
1 - I’m having a problem writing to these forums cos I keep getting a server 504 error. Am I the only one experiencing this? It seems to happen more frequently later in the day
2 - I did actually write out a long reply, but the software ‘lost’ it in the middle of logging me in, and I can’t be bothered to type it all again so I’ll do it briefly, and perhaps again later if I get the time. Luckily I still saved my response from yesterday when I couldn’t post it 
Minty Green: I’ll have to look into the Book or Mormon before making comment on that, so I’ll exclude that part out for the moment. You also make mention of ‘other religious sects’. If you can show more books that have lasted as long as the Qur’an without change, then I’ll concede that, yes, the Qur’an is no means special with respect to being completely unchanged! As for the 3rd point, perhaps you’d care to find and ask someone who (in your opinion) would or should know whether this is possible and why/why not!
Captain Amazing: OK, I’ll take your point in that maybe I was a bit overzealous with that statement, but my point still stands in that the book has not changed and the fundamental basis behind Islam hasn’t! Islam will change and crumble, but my point is that will no longer be Islam once it’s altered, the same as Christianity is no longer Christianity since they decided to change their opinion on great matters (like allowing homosexuals to congregate as one example).
If truth be told Islam itself will completely fade away and the Qur’an will disappear ('cos God will take it back from mankind), leaving only old people who would talk of a ‘being’ called God. This will give way to the day of Judgement. But until then the Qur’an will remain unaltered and protected by God! And that’s my point!
Zav: Lots of points :). I’ll try to answer them one by one!
I made those assumptions 'cos thats where I wanted to start the debate. At the end of the day we could go as far back as debating whether or not Adam and Eve existed, and whether we’re really here and not being used as human batteries or whatnot, but that would take forever to discuss and I wanted to press forward!
The Qur’an existing in it’s original form for as long as it has proves more than people being careful in copying it! That’s a lot of people being very careful over a long period of time. Not gonna happen just like that is it? If that was the case, why is this unique to the Qur’an! I know I can find multiple versions of the bible all over the place 'cos I’ve seen them, no comment on the Torah but I’m sure if I looked I could find a few!
The Jews have more than one religious book? As far as I’m aware the Torah is their book, and it has been changed and altered! Anyway, my point is these one and one single things on their own don’t make any great feat, but it’s the result of their collectiveness.
The Qur’an is written in a form of poetry with language so strong that it can make your heart feel like beating so hard it will come out of your chest. But in simplistic terms it’s a form of poetry with strong wording which hasn’t been copied yet. And before you’d even try you’d have to learn arabic, so I suggest, until you find someone who’s done it, you take my word on that one 
If the Qur’an is correct about fetal development, surely that wasn’t a coincedence. The idea is that the knowledge and information came from a higher source because man did not discover all this information scientifically until centuries later. And I didn’t say it mentioned every detail, just accurate information for example how the egg and sperm join to make an embryo, after 40 days it changes, it’s appearance, etc etc. Thing that could not have been known at the time! The purpose of Islam is not to educate us all on how a baby grows which is why it doesn’t contain EVERYTHING on it, it just mentions enough to show that the knowledge has come from a higher source!
And it’s not my intention to ‘bash’ other religions, I’m just trying to point out where a religious insititution is performing acts that are not consistent with religion itself!
I believe Mohammad’s story to be true because I believe in the Qur’an! Simple as.
I didn’t say Jesus was flawless, but even so, Mohammad came along because MAN is not flawless!
Talking about Mohammad coming after Jesus, as far as I’m led to believe Jesus himself made several prophecies on Mohammad being sent. They are in:
John 14:56-16
John 15:26-27
John 16:5-8
John 16:12-14
John 16:16
Jesus refers to a Comforter/Spirit of Truth/Holy Spirit which are terms used intechangably. The original word is Greek and it means ‘one whom people praise exceedlingly’. I believe that he was referring to Mohammad. Christianity was perpared for someone else to come!
Ok, as for what the Qur’an states about fetal development. I’m not gonna type it all out, you can read the Qur’an yourself if you want to know that bad :D. I did originally give a list for a later reply, but it was lost (“how convenient I hear some of you say”). I’ll write it out again later if I get the chance and the forums respond! I’m not suggesting that people in Mohammads time had never seen a fetus or didn’t know what it was, I’m saying that they couldn’t have known to such a degree without any form of scientific investigation which was not performed until centuries afterwards.
tomndebb:
Yes, I suppose if you kept a wholly open mind, it was/is possible that Mohammad record the same messages in different words, but, and this is a big BUT, Mohammad never actually wrote anything down 'cos he couldn’t write. The Qur’an was delivered to him by the angel Gabriel and it was printed on his heart (as in he learned it by heart instantly) from which he recited it. Of course, where you and I could easily forget stuff we’ve remembered, Allah ensured that Mohammad would remember the Qur’an as if he’d always known it.
SuaSponte:
I’m confused why someone would want to translate a book when the original language (Arabic) is still around in everyday use. The only real version of the Qur’an is the Arabic one, so if there are people translating it it must be in other languages which by very definition is NOT the Qur’an! I know I can’t sit here and prove to you that it hasn’t changed over the 1400 years, but I can tell you I’ve been to several countries (and before you say anything, no, I didn’t happen to go out of my way, I happened to be in said country) and bought a copy of the Qur’an, compared them and found them all to be identical - which is good enough for me. If there is a bunch of scholars sitting around deciding what’s the go in the new version of the Qur’an, I’d like to know who they are. Where do they operate from? What gives them the authority to do this? How come they have ensured no other version other than their latest is available, and that it’s identical to every other? Questions, questions, questions :D. I would submit that they’re actually translating it into another language, which can’t be done flawlessly as the Qur’an uses several terms which have no equal in any other language. Can someone tell me the english equivilent of ‘Raab’? A famous Russian translator (I don’t know who) apparently converted “Out of sight, out of mind” into Russian and back to english (or maybe the other way around, I don’t know, but I’m getting to a point ;)) and it came back as “Invisible Lunatic”. Just because the translated version means one thing doesn’t make it correct! I really don’t think “white raisins” are awaiting Islamic martyrs just 'cos some scholar “translated” the Qur’an and came out with that! What is the original wording of the Qur’an???
pldennison:
I did write you out a long list, sorry mate but the ‘board’ lost it. I blame myself though 'cos after the experiences I had yesterday I should have copied it before attempting to post. Either way, I’ll just list the names down now, if I can I’ll attribute their work later if I get time.
1 - Professor Keith Moore
2 - Dr GC Goeringer
3 - Dr Marshall Johnson
4 - Professor TVN Persuad
5 - Dr Tejatat Tejasen (who converted to Islam after being presented with the verses relevant to his profession, he then changed his lectures and consequently 5 of his students also converted)
6 - Professor Alfred Kroner
7 - Professor Palmer
Not all these are American, some are Canadian, German and other nationalities. They also represent different fields, anatomy, felal development, geology to name a couple. I did write it out in more detail, and I can’t be bothered doing it again so you’ll just have to settle for the names for now. Sorry 
K2Rage101: What’s your point? That if I read the Bible I’d convert to Christianity? Sorry mate, no chance - I’m already on the sequel :D. Besides I’m not gonna learn Hebrew! Why don’t you try reading the Qur’an and we’ll see how far you get there 
partly_warmer: Did I try that but I don’t know any Christians around my way who are into christianity as much as I’m into Islam - so it wouldn’t be fair. Most of the christians I know are christian by name, and not by nature! I’m not saying there aren’t any religious Christians around, I’m sure there’s millions, I just don’t happen to know any personally.
Truth Seeker: Interesting how can you believe that article just like that, instead of questioning it’s authenticity! I’ve already posed the question on how these ‘scholars’ came to this conclusion!
Jam Shady, I just fixed a triple post of yours. When you post your message, just have faith that it went through, please.
Thanks for that. I actually did open up a separate browser window to check whether it had gone through 'cos I refreshed the main GD board with all the threads after the other browser came up with the 504 error, and it wasn’t showing my post, so I assumed it didn’t go through. Then on the 3rd go both browsers came up with the 504 error so I just left it then.
Thanks anyway. Think next time I’ll post once and leave it for a few hours. Funnily enough it’s OK for browsing now, and when I was typing up my earlier reply, but as soon as it came to posting it it just crashed.
Jam Shady - realize that the shear magnitude of people who browse these forums will bog it down and inherently plague it with http errors (this is why we have DoS and DRDoS attacks made by hackers). Post before 10am or after midnight if possible.
Oh, and since it appears that you missed my point from my earlier post, I’ll reiterate: Your OP asks “Is the Qur’an a hoax?” and you go on to list 4 “facts” that support your belief that it is not a hoax. I then made the OBSERVATION that the doper’s here promptly stripped you of those facts and left you with seemingly nothing. Then made the STATEMENT by EXAMPLE (the Bible) that people can be better convinced not through “fact” but by actually reading the book in question and making a judgement after that.
Your comment:
indicates that you accept the Qur’an dogmatically and there is really no point in debating with you anyway.
Translation: I asserted that the Qur’an was incapable of being mistranscribed, and anyone who questions that assertion should ask somebody else for evidence of the assertion’s truth.
That’s not exactly the most straightforward and honest of debating strategies, you know.
So this only works one way and not the other? I HAVE to read the bible for this argument to stand while you can just presume to know the Qur’an?
Well, I have read the Bible - not the whole thing but bits of it! And there have been quite a few differences. For instance, the bit where Jesus is supposedly dying on the cross. Some say that he said something along the lines of “O Father, why hast though forsaken me” which christians would take as him referring to God as his literal father. Other versions substitute Father for God which would seem more consistent with the Islamic version of events.
In contrast, like I said before, I’ve read the Qur’an from several different places in the world, and they’re all the same - a little more the coincedence in my opinion!
At the end of the day where do you think the Qur’an came from? Mohammad made it up? And it’s managed to exist all these years by some fluke? And the fact that it’s quickly catching up to Christianity as the most popular religion? It’s a little unfair to suggest all this happened purely by chance!
At the end of the day I believe that the Qur’an was sent down by God (as was the Bible and Torah), and that this is how God wishes man to carry out his life - in accordance with the Qur’an! What you believe is entirely up to you!
This thread was merely about whether the whole thing is a hoax, whether Mohammad just made it up (notice I excluded him and the Qur’an specifically from my list of assumptions 'cos those are the points I wanted to debate), or whether or not it is indeed genuine! I’ve no doubt that the original Bible was genuine, but I do not believe that was it available today is an exact replica of what was sent down by the Almighty! I believe that the Qur’an is also genuine, but the difference is I still believe that it’s exactly the same as originally sent down!
PS. I do not believe the ‘dopers’ have stripped me of my facts! It seems to me as though if I was to say something, it would be fiercely contested, but if someone says anything without any backing or reasoning, it’s instantly assumed to be correct! There is a phrase we use on a popular board in the UK that I frequent:
“are you on crack mate?”
BTW - with regard to the HTTP errors, I did originally ask a question which again you’ve side-stepped! Am I the only one experiencing this, or have you all experienced it? If I am the only one then perhaps there is something wrong at my ISP’s end, but if the problem is affecting you all then I can safely conclude it’s the server and I should persevere. At the end of the day 504 errors are issued by the server, so I’m inclined to think that way, but I can’t be sure hence I asked the question!
And as for the sheer magnitude of people, how do you know how many people there are browsing these boards? Would you care to state a number right NOW! Perhaps you’d like to visit the DVD Forums in the UK at http://www.thedvdforums.com/ where they can have upwards of 350 people browsing (at the moment it’s 389, the highest has been 488) and it works flawlessly with no loss in speed! If you’d care to give us a number representing the amount of people actively browsing these boards right now, perhaps we could compare. I don’t think it would be any more than that, and if the boards are running this slow then perhaps they should consider upgrading the servers. Either way, I want a number from you to back up your statement of the “sheer magnitude” 'cos I’ll tell you one thing, the threads on this forum arn’t moving half as fast as the DVD Forums one which suggests to me less people (or rather, less active people!). If you can’t suggest an accurate number I’d suggest that you abstain from making statements you can’t back up!
Also, can someone please give me the definition of ‘witnessing’? The term has been thrown around quite a bit and I’m still clueless as to what it means!
Minty: Sorry, but the only way you’re really gonna understand it properly is if you learn Arabic. If you learn a second language (doesn’t have to be Arabic, could be anything) you’ll realise there are vast differences between the two you know, and there are certain thoughts and ideas that cannot be conveyed. Now, the way the Qur’an is written is quite special in that it follows a rythmn and has impact for want of a better description. I’m sorry I can’t explain it any more than that, but I would hope that you could take my word on that no-one has yet managed to alter it as proof of this.
Unless of course you believe it has been altered in which case I would like to examine what you believe to be the new altered Qur’an! I’ve had a look at quite a few and they’re all identical to me!
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It’s Zev, not Zav. Zav is a hebrew word for a type of seminal discharge.
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That’s fine, but don’t expect everyone to accept your proof if you start with assumptions that not everyone accpets. I certainly don’t accept that the Christian diety is the same as the Jewish diety. I certainly don’t accept that Jesus was a prophet and that he performed miracles. I certainly don’t even accept that all the prophets before Jesus performed miracles.
[qutoe]**
The Qur’an existing in it’s original form for as long as it has proves more than people being careful in copying it! That’s a lot of people being very careful over a long period of time. Not gonna happen just like that is it? If that was the case, why is this unique to the Qur’an! I know I can find multiple versions of the bible all over the place 'cos I’ve seen them, no comment on the Torah but I’m sure if I looked I could find a few!
[/quote]
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Well, please look and let me know if you find multiple versions of the Torah somewhere… You’re the one making the claim after all, not me. In any event, as I pointed out earlier, The Cat in the Hat is available in it’s original form. That doesn’t make TCITH a divine document, however.
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Cite, please. Where has the Torah been altered? When? Who altered it? And what should the “unaltered version” be?
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I’m sure that there are lots of works of beautiful poetry in difficult languages. Doesn’t make them divine.
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The Talmud also discusses fetal developement at forty days after conception and was completed about 100-200 years before the Qur’an. In any event, figuring out that a part of the father and part of the mother come together to form a baby is no great scientific achievement.
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And that’s fine. But don’t present it as fact. Present it as your belief.
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And man is still not flawless. Does that mean that we need yet another prophet?
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Well, since I don’t believe in the divinity, prophetness (is there such a word?) or messiahship of Jesus, what John has to say about Mohammad’s coming doesn’t mean anything to me.
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You’re the one making the claim, back it up. Don’t ask me to disprove your claim without you presenting the claim in full first.
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Whenever I have a long post, I always save it to Notepad before hitting the submit button. This way if the server fails on me, I can simply re-copy the text back (after first making sure that the post didn’t really go through).
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OK, I’m still waiting for you to back up this claim.
In other words, you still haven’t really addressed a single point I brought up in my original post. I’m still waiting for you to tell me when “Judaism began to crumble” and if Christianity was supposed to be a replacement for Judaism, how is it that Judaism is still here today, 2000 years later?
Zev Steinhardt
So, what you are really saying is that Mohammed had a group of followers who each remembered some of the sayings of their leader and, sometime after his death, they sat down to organize them into a coherent book? That sounds just like Christianity and the Q document. (And, contrary to your implied assertion, we already know that there were multiple versions of the Qur’an written down–you are simply looking at the version that “won” and ignoring (or failing to realize) that there were others.) I am aware of the tradition of the Reciters and I have no reason to doubt that Mohammed took care to establish their place in Islam. However, when the text was finally committed to paper, it was based on the testimony “of at least two” Reciters. Given that we already know of alternative verses, this system was apparently not infallible.
Actually, you are factually in error, again. The Masoretic text has been demonstrated to be as accurate as the Qur’an, and it has been compared to documents extending back over 2,000 years. Can one find “versions” of some books within the bible that are ancient? Yes–about as many as we can find competing versions of the Qur’an. The oldest extant copy of a piece of the Qur’an dates to the eighth century–about 100 years after the efforts of Abu Bakr and Zayd Ibne Thaabit. The oldest copy of the complete Qur’an was written at least 150 after the death of Mohammed (at about the same time that the Masoretic recension of the Hebrew bible was completed). Your tradition can provide you with a belief that no changes ever occurred, but you do not have the physical evidence to demonstrate that such beliefs are rooted in reality.
(By the way, there is more to the Jewish bible than the Torah; it also includes the Prophets and the Psalms and Other Writings. You also seem to be confusing the multiplicity of translations of the bible with multiple versions of the bible. It is true that Christianity has not followed the path set by Judaism and Islam in discouraging translations to other tongues, but that is a separate issue from looking at original sources.)
I’m afraid that your claim for the superiority of the Qur’an based on a misconception that it has “not changed” in some longer period of time than other holy books is simply in error.
I am not attacking your belief or the traditions of Islam. I am pointing out that those traditions provide no more proof of inerrancy than similar traditions within other religions. I am also aware that we are not talking about massive differences between the texts, however a claim to absolute purity is defeated by even small discrepancies.
Yes. Don’t take it personally, though. I think the Old and New Testaments and the Book of Mormon are of purely human origin as well, and I say that without anything but respect for people of faith like Captain Amazing, zev_steinhardt, and Monty. I greatly respect those posters because they fully understand the differences between assertions of fact and statements of faith.*
Nope. Careful transcription. So what?
Really? Where are your “facts” on the fetal development thing (and you need to produce both what the Koran says and show that people of that time period were clueless about the course of pregnancy)? Where’s your rebuttal to the New York Times article SuaSponte linked above? Have you officially recanted your ridiculous assertion that the Qu’ran is the only religious text that still exists in its original form (since you now seem to be stating that it’s just the oldest, about which I also have serious doubts)?
Oh, and I am not about to go learn Arabic for the sake of this argument. If god wants to talk to me, he can do it in a language I understand. And if you’re going to rest on the argument that the Qu’ran must be divine because it is in Arabic and no translation is perfect, I’m afraid that’s almost too silly for words. No text in one language can be translated to another language without losing meaning, “rhythm,” and “impact.” That’s a function of language, not of god.
*Sorry if that didn’t come out quite the right way, guys. You know what I mean.
Jam, for the record, the Jewish Bible - which includes the Torah - is believed to be unchanged from the time it was written, nearly a thousand years before the Koran.
Just take that into consideration.
Oh, and as a Jew, I don’t believe Judaism is “perfect”. As Oscar Wilde would say, that leaves no room for improvement.
35 seconds later, at Dictionary.com
Witness:n.
One who can give a firsthand account of something seen, heard, or experienced: a witness to the accident.
One who furnishes evidence.
Something that serves as evidence; a sign.
Law.
One who is called on to testify before a court.
One who is called on to be present at a transaction in order to attest to what takes place.
One who signs one’s name to a document for the purpose of attesting to its authenticity.
An attestation to a fact, statement, or event; testimony.
**One who publicly affirms religious faith. **
Witness A member of the Jehovah’s Witnesses
As for the “shear magnitude” remark, I see you registered here, what, yesterday? Look at when I joined the forums. I know how this place works, and I have a feel for when it gets busy. Look on the main forum page at the NUMBER of threads, and the NUMBER of registered members. If even 5% log on during the peak of the day, that’s over 1,150 people online at once.
Well put, minty green. Thank you.
To witness is to proclaim one’s personal beliefs in God, based on ones own understanding seen through one’s own life experiences.
Your continued assertion that the Qur’an must be real based on your personal beliefs (together with your rather weak arguments defending it) appears to many, here, as witnessing. Particularly in the original thread, your insistence that the Qur’an could be used to comment on the Dex’s report on the crucifixion, when, whatever divine message the Qur’an brings, it does not speak to the historical record of the times, is a faith-based argument, not a historical one–that is witnessing.
And I see now that my comment earlier on “look at when I joined the forum” makes no sense…I joined in Feb. 1999, but now it says Jun 2001…probably because I trolled and made no posts through 2000, so my “counter reset” or something.
I hope you mean “lurked,” not “trolled.”
Yeah, sorry, you got it :smack:
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Yes.
The Qur’an is a hoax. It was never written. It does not exist. Muslims are a figment of your imagination.
What’s to be sorry about? Very well said, minty. I know exactly what you meant.