Is the Toyota acceleration problem actually just mass hysteria?

Couple things about that video -

That version of the Toyota has a key ignition, not push button so perhaps different electronics.
The gear shift is a physical gear shift (is that closer to a manual where it’s actually physically shifting?) A lot of the prius is just a little knob that you move to switch gears. That’s more like what Airman Doors was talking about in that the gear shift is completely electronically controlled.

Mine looks like this:

http://usnews.rankingsandreviews.com/cars-trucks/Toyota_Prius/2008/photos-interior/steering-wheel/

photo 8 shows the gear shifter the best. It’s a tiny knob below the rectangular “park” button at 3:00 below the right side vent. The push button power is directly to the left of the right side vent as well.

Edit to add: @Fear Itself - I personally have experienced where the car’s computer would not allow a power off, I dont think it’s too much of a stretch to say that something could occur to override the gear shift function as well.

Can throttles get stuck? Sure - happened to me on my Ford Ranger. In that case it was purely a mechanical problem. I shifted into neutral, pulled off the road, popped the hood, did a quick fix, then drove it safely to a real mechanic to make sure it would stay fixed.

Is EVERY report of a malfunctioning Toyota legit? At this point… likely not as some scammer will at some point try to cash in on the "hysteria’. That’s probably why the Prius in question is being examined for faults.

I think there is a big stretch between events that “could” happen, and events that “have” happened. We know that sometimes the car won’t turn off; but I have yet to see any report of a car that cannot be shifted into neutral. Absent some anecdotal reports, there is no reasonable equivalency between the ignition and the transmission.

Sparky is generally correct, a set of fresh brakes generally has enough force to overcome the engine in almost any modern car. While I was a state inspector, the parking brake test involved setting the brake, placing the vehicle in second, and making sure the brakes held when you tried to move. That’s the weaker half the braking system holding the car in a lower gear than you would have at freeway speeds, where the engine would have less mechanical advantage in regard to torque multiplication. While the brakes are controlled by computer, the systems generally do not interfere unless they sense a wheel locking up. The Prius and cars that use it’s hybrid system have strange brakes, but my understanding was that Ford was licensing Toyota’s hybrid system for its hybrid cars. Ford issued a recall for the braking problem at around the same time Toyota did. This braking problem was one of transition from the regenerative braking to mechanical braking, it did not leave the driver without their most powerful brakes, and appears unrelated to the problems with acceleration. Ford has not issued a recall for the acceleration problem, but I do not think they licensed the third generation hybrid technology, which is the system which has a recall for acceleration problems. It is possible that in some situations the acceleration problems either occurred gradually causing the brakes to overheat without the driver noticing, or coincided with a failure of the brake system.

Now, I can’t see any car maker creating a transmission that will not shift to neutral while moving. This is a safety issue, people! GaryM can shift into neutral in his (I think) second gen Prius. I am going to assume that the unfortunate folks who have not shifted into neutral were either fools like the guy in the above story, who thought going into neutral would be catastrophic for anything but the engine; or the idea did not occur to them. Unless, of course, some one has a link to an official doc stating that the third gen Prius can’t go into neutral while moving? It’s possible, manufacturers have done foolish things in the past, but this would be really, really dumb. (on preview, thank you Bone, that is a really, really dumb, unsafe setup)

I’ve recently come to understand that the famous Audi problems with unintended acceleration were deemed a combination of driver error and poor pedal placement. They had more complaints per vehicle sold than Toyota has had recently. If the actual incidents aren’t due to mass hysteria, I believe the large amount of coverage is.

It could be.

Or it could be that SOME cars have accelerated incorrectly and twenty times as many people are going berzerk over nothing. That’s where my money is. This sort of thing is an absolutely perfect opportunity for mass hysteria. It’s like when a few people get sick on a cruise ship and within a few days 500 people all claim to be dying of the flu, and they’re all fine once the ship docks.

This “sudden acceleration” thing has happened before, to other models and makes of car, and the end result of extensive NTSB investigation was always the same; the drivers were hitting the gas instead of the brake and then panicking.

Well, edmunds.com is putting up a $1 million prize for anyone who can “demonstrate in a controlled environment a repeatable factor that will cause an unmodified new vehicle to accelerate suddenly and unexpectedly.”

I wonder if anyone will claim it.

I owned a 1984 Audi 5000 Turbo back when the sudden-acceleration panic hit. Man, that was a nice car, but the resale value went through the floor. And it was pretty clear at the time that is was a case of mass hysteria, the main evidence being a 60 Minutes segment where they physically modified the car to make it accelerate, where people remembered the image of a car accelerating on its own but forgot the little detail that they modified it to do just that.

That experience makes me pretty skeptical of this new hysteria.

No way is drive by wire an improvement in this case. Whether the computer picks up throttle position from the foot petal or the throttle plate the information is the same. The difference is that a throttle plate directly controlled by a foot pedal would normally shut the car down when foot pressure is removed.

Drive by wire is something that saves weight in commercial aviation (among other benefits) but has no benefit to smaller aircraft over conventional mechanisms. The same applies to cars. The problem with the Prius is that it has a substantial electric motor that is independent of a throttle mechanism and it also doesn’t have a conventional ignition switch. Toyota and every manufacturer that uses a button to start the car needs to notify every single owner on the correct way to shut the car off in the event of an emergency. The same goes for non-standard transmission shifters.

It would be strange indeed if at least some of these reports were not made by people who were wrangling for a large legal settlement.

This will get a bit long. Bear with me.

I have no problem believing that in at least some instances, driver fault was the problem. But Toyota hasn’t been doing themselves any favors by boasting in internal documents that they had saved money by successfully avoiding a recall.

For the first month or so Japan was willing to blame all this on overseas ‘Toyota bashing’. As far as Japanese consumers were concerned, the cars in question were made overseas, and the parts were made by a foreign supplier, so their domestic cars were still safe, right? Except now it turns out there have been dozens of similiar cases in Japan that Toyota specifically, and Japan’s automotive industry overall, has been able to keep quiet: consumer protection is simply not that important of a concept in Japan, where consumers have bought in big-time to the perception - perpetuated by corporates - that ‘Japanese companies only care about product quality and consumer safety, not like those big nasty foreign corporations that only care about profit’.

And yet, Japan has had numerous scandals the past couple of years: food being sold well after the use-by date, use-by date labels being re-marked when they were about to expire, tainted rice being sold for cooking use when it was supposed to be sold to make glue, restaurants re-using uneaten food from diners’ plates, cheaper imported food being purposely mis-labeled as expensive domestic food, companies re-using ingredients past their expiration date, and another auto company (Mitsubishi Fuso Truck & Bus) systematically covering up a serious design flaw in front wheel hubs. And those are just the problems that have serviced in the past few years.

Almost all of these problems came to light because of internal whistle-blowers. In many cases problems stretched back decades. Why are they coming out more frequently now?

By and large, Japanese citizens first and foremost avoid at all costs avoid getting involved other peoples’ problems. I personally suspect its why women on trains more often than not avoid saying anything when they get groped: they want to avoid calling attentoin to themselves, and they know most people around them won’t help them. As long as employees were being paid sufficiently and were secure in their employment, they would stay silent. But Japan’s workers have suffered almost 20 years of essentially zero wage growth: for example, for the period from 1990-2003, wages rose by about 1.2% on average - but all that growth was in the first five years; growth actually declined between 1995 and 2003, and real disposable income continued to decline, by about 0.7% on average (CAGR), between 2005 and 2009. And this despite Japanese companies recording years of record profits, from the end of the IT bubble through 2007. Workers didn’t enjoy any benefit from the record profits, and now they’re taking the brunt of the blow of the downturn, as companies, flush with cash but scared to spend any of it, react to falling sales overseas by cutting full-time hires and hiring them back as temps at a third of the cost. Workers feel that companies are no longer holding up their end of the bargain - and so you get whisleblowers.

The whole ‘Japanese quality’ and ‘employment for life’ things in Japan are, and always have been, myths; Japan (and foreigners) simply believed Japan’s own press clippings. I’ve worked in Japan or at Japanese companies for nearly all of my adult life, and I can tell you that there is no difference in the level, frequency, or scale of screw-ups. The only difference is, it’s a heck of a lot easier to cover it up at a Japanese company, because its usually almost impossible to easily and correctly assign responsibility. Projects are handled on a nebulous ‘team’ base that may span any number of teams in any number of divisions - which means no one can be said to really be in charge.

I think Toyota clearly has a problem on their hand, and by all accounts they knew about it years ago. Cause for mass alarm? Perhaps not - I mean, I suspect that any car could potentially have some fault with it. The potential defect rate overall seems awfully low, and besides, no matter the car or the brand, the defect rate will also be > 0.

If nothing else this issue helped me put a ‘marker’ in my brain to think to hit my car’s on/off button for three seconds to kill the engine if there ever is a problem.

But I still wouldn’t rush out to buy a car from an automaker that for years seemed more concerned with covering up the potential problem and stonewalling any fact-finding in Japan than actually fixing it.

One Op-Ed I read the other day pointed out, that there are dozens of people getting kiled anonymously in car crashes every day across the nation, but now every time a Toyota skids it’s the top of the news.

Which is not to say that indeed with this and other alleged defects in the past, the default corporate position of saying it must be something YOU did wears thin after a while, specially when eventually they come around to saying, oh, wait, there IS something we can fix…

So there ARE real problems AND hysteria.

OK, we have a number of different possible failure points in the various different models:

With their conventionally-powered vehicles, there may be the pedal unit itself (mechanicals or electronics or software), the keyless ignition lock, and in many models, an automatic shifter where the usual and customary way of slapping the lever from D to N is NOT in effect when the lever is in the position that most drivers will put it – they will often w/o even intending to drop it all the way to the “manumatic” upshift/downshift position, rather than leaving it in the regular old D. This can be confusing. In the Prius there’s the separate electric power, the regenerative brakes, and the unusual transmission control, which is all computer controlled.

It may well be indeed that in a large number of the reported cases what we have is individuals panicking and compounding a problem that could have been easily solved, but then again, they are faced with something they did not expect. In that way Toyota is a victim of its own formerly excellent record: the driver looks at their vehicles as the automotve equivalent of the Holiday Inn: No Surprises. Suddenly something unexpected happens and the driver realizes that what he used to do for the last 25 years is not how you do it in this car…

In any case, it’s not just Toyota, the whole automotive industry and safety regulatory apparatus, ironically has worked to lull drivers into a complacency/resignation that they no longer need/can become familiar with how the vehicle’s systems work, and everything will be more or less standard across the board.

One of the things I’ve been skeptical of in recent years has been indeed the RFID ignition buttons. It just sticks in my mind that I should retain an easy way of overriding every computer in order to turn off the car by physically breaking the circuit. Of course I also have a HUGE issue with how most conventional ignition locks put the “ignition off but auxiliary electricals on” position too close to the “lock the steering wheel” position, as that can be extremely dangerous in any runaway-car situation. Similarly with transmissions, I should retain a way to mechanically put the thing in neutral if I so wish.

I guess you would also remember some of the older British cars that I have experience with, where to remove the key (thus activating the steering wheel lock) you had to push an additional button on the steering column?

The first time I encountered that it took my like 15 minutes to get the damn key out - and back then there were no cell phones I could use to ring someone and get advice

This is right. Bringing this problem to peoples attention will bring in several other claims at once. Someone will hear about it and say, “Hey that did happen to me once and I just put it in neutral, I should probably call it it”, and those who want just attention, or excuse for their traffic accident, or fodder for litigation hoping to cash in.

How much the focus of attention has brought real events to the surface will be difficult to discern. One thing for sure though is that your own personal skeptism isn’t going to save Toyota’s resale value if you’re trying to sell one.

How many of these reports are from elderly drivers?
Just today, the Boston Globe reported on a Toyota SUV that crashed into a building. The driver was a 72 year old woman-she probably mistook the accelerator pedal for the brake.
I expect most of these incidents involve panicked, elederly drivers. In Massachusetts, the corrupt legislature refuses to enact vision and reflex testing for drivers older than 75-which will guarantee more of these incidents in the future.
Of course, the lawyers will have a field day with this-it will be the biggest legal bonanza since the Ford Explorer.

Brakes = Stop. That needs to be rule #1 in any vehicle. If the computer is overriding that for any reason, that needs to change and needs to change immediately. I think it’s a sensor and software problem.

I remember driving my Mazda on roads with a little slush on them and when I pressed on the gas to accelerate instead of acceleration it actually slowed down. That was a bit shocking, seemed like it was stalling. But it was actually the traction control kicking in. The point is, when your car does something so unexpected like accelerate without you telling it to, it can be very alarming and disconcerting. But for people going down the highway for miles out of control, surely, some combination of Neutral, emergency brake, or just plain turning the ignition off to stop the engine and then turning it back on for steering and brakes would work.

This is probably a good time to own a manual transmission vehicle, AFAIK when you put those in Neutral you’re physically connected to the transmission. Same with pressing the clutch.

I expect that a number of people are deliberately creating situations that will allow them to cash in on the class-action lawsuits.

To me, it still seems to be more about people than cars. (Yes, there’s a defect, and yes, it makes the cars more dangerous). Some folks just flat out cannot deal with emergency driving situations. Nobody’s perfect. Trouble is, we don’t usually find this sort of thing out until too late. Let’s face it, there are millions of people out there among us who only by the sheerest of luck have avoided Darwin Award-type deaths so far.

I agree with this sentiment. From personal experience with friends and relatives, for some people the simplest glitch makes them loose all control, literally.

HOWEVER, as has been stated above, some of these cars are presenting new technology and methods to drivers, and are not intuitive in this. I travel for work every week and rent a new car every week. I can’t tell you how many times I’ve jumped in one for the first time late at night and had to work at it figuring out simple lights/wipers/mirror-adjustments. I’ve had a few Prius models with the keyless push button method and call me any name you want but I shouldn’t have to read a f*cking manual to start / stop the car.

Mass hysteria implies that it is happening to a crowd all at once. Not one person at a time. Is this guy faking? Possible. He sounds like a raging idiot. All normal cars can be stopped at full open throttle by standing on the brake. That is how they are designed.

Having defended a case of “sudden acceleration”, I am somewhat skeptical that this happens in instances other than where the driver mistakes the throttle for the brake. But that case was long before drive by wire. I don’t know if these cases are real.

One guy brought his into the dealer while pegged (by shifting between neutral and drive). He had been in before for same problem but they couldn’t reproduce the issue on previous visits.

http://www.toyotarecall.org/20100118-abc-news-to-air-toyota-avalon-acceleration-case/