Is the Toyota acceleration problem actually just mass hysteria?

Great Debates
41

Seriously. I can’t count the number of times, just on this message board, where epople have expressed the sentiment that any use of sirensm, or car horns, or what have you on the radio should be illegal. Because they hear the siren or horn and OMG PANIC WHAT’S WRONG WHAT AM I GOING TO DO!! :eek::eek:"

Really? Your first instinct is to panic? Get the fuck off the road. You know what I do when I hear a siren? I look ahead of me, I look in my mirrors, and I turn my head slightly to check blind spots and the shoulders. By then, I’ve either determined where the emergency vehicle is, or I’ve determined it’s just the radio. No panicing, no white knuckles, etc…

I’ve been in a couple driving situations where something went wrong with the car (once at highway speeds,) and I didn’t panic. The first instance I was able to steer and shift fine, so I slowed down and pulled over. The second time my clutch went, so I “couldn’t” down shift for me exit…except I could, because even without a clutch I knew I could just pop it out of gear into neutral.

Point being, people need to both not panic at the first sign something is wrong, and be more knowledgable about their cars.

Oh, and do NOT shut off the cars by pushing the power button. You’ll lose power steering, I imagine some braking power, the lights if it’s at night, etc…just go to neutral. Tap the little dashboard knob to the right, BAM, neutral-city. I don’t think that aspect of the transmission is drive-by-wire. I seem to recall reading that going into neutral has to work, even if the car is off/all electronics are shot…but I might be mistaken.

Still, point being, always try to go to neutral and don’t try to shut off the car. I mean…it seems most of these cases are on the highway, so going 90-100 on the highway really isn’t that bad if the police can makage to clear traffic, so just keep going. You’ll get the brakes to work, or run out of gas eventually.

42

I had to do a bit of PREVENTATIVE education with my wife a couple weeks ago when this Totota issue came about.
She has an 06’ Rav4 (not part of the recall) and I had to walk her through how to put it into neutral.
“Do you know how to put your car into neutral?”
“No.”
“Do you know where neutral even is?”
“No. I’ve never used it so I don’t even know what it is.”
(while driving)
“See, you’re in ‘drive’ right now. The next gear up is ‘neutral’ or ‘N’.”
“Oh, I see it now.”
“You can push the gear stick up into neutral at any time. You don’t even need to depress the side button.”
“Really?”
“Yep. Go ahead and try it.”
“Right now?”
“Yep.”
“While the car is moving?”
“Yep.”
“Won’t that hurt the car?”
“Nope.”
“Ya sure?”
“Yep.”
“Do I have to take my foot off the gas?”
“Nope.”

I’m pretty sure there are thousands out there just like my wife.

43

The Toyota recalls are more revealing about purchasing attitudes, and nationalism than actuarial realities of safety. In terms of fatalities and injuries per passenger mile, in each, and in all of the markets over the entire period of the recalled models (and separately the non-recalled models) Toyota’s reliability is still better than most of it’s competitors, and not statistically significant in comparison to all vehicle fault related accidents over time.

Among other factors that are routinely ignored by the American consumer, cell phone use, or inadequate vehicle maintenance, represent many times the number and cost of accidents, including injuries, and fatalities. Of course alcohol use dwarfs these in terms of number and costs in every jurisdiction in the United States, and it’s hard to get anyone to consider having the cost of that fact passed on to the people convicted of DUI, and DWI. In fact, it seldom makes the paper when it isn’t a particularly grotesque case.

Why? There are fewer than a hundred cases of fatalities involving Toyota malfunctions, by even the broadest definition , over the last two years, while more than sixty thousand died on the highways. The number of deaths readily attributed to alcohol use is somewhat less than half of that number, And assuming all the fatalities in the Toyota crashes were actually caused by mechanical dysfunction, it represents 1.7 percent. Compare the news coverage, and public outrage.

Yes, I think that the possibility of tort profits, and the sales of advertising are an element, but mostly it seems to me that blaming some corporation is more comfortable to most Americans than facing the hard fact that our own choices are the greatest risk factor we face, in this, and in most of our lives.

Tris

44

Very true. The people I hear crying the loudest over this with comments like “OMG! I would neeeever but a Toyota”,“Aren’t you scared driving your Toyota”,“If it were me I would get rid of that Toyota as fast as possible”,“They’re never going to sell another Toyota again!” are the same people who would never drive a Toyota to begin with.

45

The transmission on my 2008 Prius is drive by wire. Even the gas pedal is drive by wire. It seems nonsensicle to assume that these things can not malfunction.

I really do like my car and hope they figure out what is going on.

46

I assume that in the recent San Diego case the highway patrolman giving directions tried to get the guy to put it into neutral, without success. I have a Prius, which is drive-by-wire, and I’m prepared to try that and then to go to the power off method if necessary. I know about neutral - I had an old Datsun with a sticky accelerator which I halted that way. But I’m beginning to think this won’t work for the newer cars.

47

I agree that nationalism has nothing to do with it. I used to own a Pinto, and people can react the same to American cars.

But the difference between this and the other cases you mention is the lack of control. People who kill themselves driving drunk did it to themselves, when people get killed
by them we have someone to blame. But in this case a car - a fairly new one - betrays us in a sense, and people fear that it could happen to them at any time.

Lots more people die on the roads than died on 9/11. Do you think no one should have reacted to that either?

48

I’m getting a little upset with all you people poo-pooing the folks who panic when something weird happens when they are driving. It’s disconcerting, distracting and scary. And it’s all happening to people who have automatic transmissions as far as I can tell. IMHO, many if not most people with automatic transmissions don’t know any more about how their car works than; “I turn it on put it in drive and it works”. Like someone posted above, his wife didn’t even know what neutral did.

I’m an old lady who drives a lot, mainly manual transmission cars/trucks. My first car was a '59 Chevy Belair with three on the tree. I experienced runaway acceleration with my 1990 Toyota 4-runner several years ago. I was on the on ramp to a highway and immediately pushed in the clutch and pulled off to the side of the road. My heart was pounding even though I wasn’t ever in any danger of losing control. I can imagine that if I had an automatic transmission I would have been more confused and panicy. It just never occurs to you to move that shift lever when driving an auto tranny when the car is moving.

From what my husband and I could figure out, it subsequently happened to him once as well, it was associated with a malfunction of the cruise control. After he experienced the same thing we just never turned on the cruise control and never had a problem again. At that point the 4 had 100,00 miles on it. We traded it last year with 265,000+ miles. Great car/truck.

49

I want to know from a Prius driver whether or not it will go into neutral while at speed/accelerating.

I look forward to your reply.

I really cannot fathom someone driving many miles while accelerating if this simple solution does not work.

I also can not fathom any lawsuit being won if the driver can achieve neutral while accelerating. I mean, yeah, your car tried to kill you, but you lived, and damn, you really never knew what neutral was?!

But what if the computer cancels the neutral input from the driver because the car is accelerating? I have no idea.

And another thing, why the hell would anyone expect a payout if they were saved? “My car tried to kill me.” “But you lived!” “Yeah, but I didn’t expect my car to try and kill me.” “But you lived, with no harm.” “I cry at night.” “BUT YOU LIVED, AND WILL CONTINUE TO LIVE!”

I hate our legal system if the my attempt at humor bares out.

50

In my normally functioning Prius, I can shift to neutral while engaging the gas pedal. You have to hold it in neutral for a moment (I believe this is to prevent accidently shifting since I have hit the knob with my knee accidentally before).

This is not to say that it would work if the electronics are failing in some other way.

51

Yeah - North Americans only want to kill themselves and others on the road by the tens of thousands because of driver error, not have their cars do it for them (rarely). :mad:

52

This should be a family discussion with everybody who owns a car. I would like to change your instructions to: not only do you not need to depress the button on the side you specifically do not want to touch the button. Holding the button allows you to shift into reverse which would be bad. Practice grabbing the shifter at the base and pushing forward without touching the button.

Conventional shifters are designed this way. Non-conventional shifters such as a Lexus with a sport shifter or the Prius will have to be reviewed on a car by car basis.

53

The recent, well-covered story about this linked to in the OP is almost certainly a hoax of some breed or another.

The guy completely ignored the 911 dispatcher’s pleas to shift into neutral, and he later said he was too scared to take his either of his hands off the wheel to shift. This was following his claimed attempt to reach down and lift the pedal (nearly impossible in a moving Prius from the driver’s seat), and he was holding a phone.

This article shows that the acceleration reports are heavily skewed to older drivers, and also has a note from another reporter that says the stretch of highway the above-mentioned Sikes drama unfolded upon just happens to be the straightest and un-trafficky portion of highway in the area.

54

I wouldn’t discount a hoax but as has been pointed out, the “gear shift” is nothing but an over-sized switch because it’s drive by wire. It also doesn’t shift into neutral when first engaged. You have to hold it there (at speed) just as you have to hold the start button to shut it down. It is wholly different than a real gear shift which directly controls the transmission. My car has a reverse lockout in the lever so you can just push it into neutral without worrying about hitting reverse.

55

whether it’s a hoax or not, people will want Toyota to cover the lost trade-in value at minimum and the entire trade-in value for an alleged death machine using the “I want to keep on living” methodology of product purchase.

56

Regardless of that, he still ended up stopping the car by hitting the brakes. It just doesn’t add up.

57

Drive by wire allows for huge improvement in lower emissions, better cold running, and a simpler system. Mechanical throttles do and did stick. I have personally experienced five cases of sticking throttles all on mechanical throttle vehicles. One was from debris left in the intake that would jam the throttle open if you put your foot to the floor (boy was that a fun test drive) Three of the others were on a Plymouth I owned that would freeze the accelerator linkage if driven too long at one throttle setting in the snow. The last was on an old British sports car where I backed on going into a corner at 9/10. The throttle did not return to idle. I killed the key and got through the corner. (Whew!) Never did find a reason for that one.
Bottom line is electronic throttles are at least as safe as mechanical ones.

I have a case like this in my shop right now. The driver is in his eighties, and I think is getting Alzheimer’s. He acts and talks a lot like my father did when the disease was starting to take hold. He claims that the car took off. Twice. I went over the car with a fine tooth comb and had the factory tech guy look it over and take readings. Everything is stone normal.

58

He used the parking brake which is a dangerous thing to do because they are not designed to be a balanced braking system. What makes parking brakes dangerous is the locking mechanism. If you engage the brake and one side locks up then the car will lurch out of control before you can release the locking mechanism. Been there, done that, don’t want to do it at 94 mph.

59

Heh, what a coincidence, I was looking for more info on the California guy* and I came across this about:

Steve Wosniak

*Who does sound like a nut-job.

60

As I stated before, it doesn’t matter whether throttle position is taken from the foot pedal or the throttle shaft so it doesn’t matter from a computer standpoint because fuel is applied based on air mass. It may allow for a simpler system but I disagree that a drive-by-wire is as safe. A mechanical throttle allows the user control over the computer by limiting the amount of air that enters an engine. If a computer sees an electrical signal as WOT then it will control the vehicle as such. I don’t have fly-by-wire in my airplane and there is no backup system for the mechanical controls. the only redundancy is the ignition. I mention this to illustrate that one size doesn’t fit all and in this case it makes sense to allow the signal for more fuel to come from a mechanical throttle sensor.