You see, I keep hearing people brag about how the United States is the most free country in the world.
But I question the veracity of that claim. Much of the time the person making it hasn’t even left the country.
So, I’ll try to find information from people who are a little more knowledgable of the way things are abroad. Traveling dopers, what’s your opinion on the relative “Freedom Level” of the United States compared to other countries?
I’m wondering what that ranking would be if the index didn’t decide that the death penalty was a negative indicator as to how free a society is.
Places I’ve travelled and my impressions of freedom there:
Korea (1977~1979): Dictatorship. It’s changed now.
Germany (1979~1982): Bit less free than the United States. For one thing, there was a religion tax paid to (your choice) either the Lutheran or the Catholic church. For another, there was some kind of proportional representation for the parliament.
Japan: (1990~1996): Bit less free than the United States: Trials are not by jury, part of the Diet is elected by proportional representation, the Constitution provides that “the people” are the supreme authority but in practice it’s the bureaucrats, plus there’s a monarch.
United Arab Emirates: Confederation of monarchs. Lot less free than the United States, but one can still have a lot of fun there.
Malaysia: Confederation of monarchs, functioning democracy, Islam is the national religion; however, non-Muslims are not denied practice of their religion. IIRC, proseltyzing is okay depending on which state it’s done in.
Thailand: Pretty democratic, except for that whole monarch thing.
Singapore: “Benevolant” dictatorship masquerading as a democracy.
British Indian Ocean Territory: Draconian legal system, very severe penalties for what would be considered minor elsewhere.
United Kingdom: As free as the United States, except for that whole monarch thing going on.
Ireland: As free as the United States, except for a few minor things such as restrictions on a woman’s right to abortion.
People’s Republic of China: Don’t ask.
Hong Kong: Dedicated to keeping the tourists and the businesses coming.
Macau: Dedicated to keeping the tourists and the gamblers coming.
It seems easier for foreign nationals to come to the U.S. and establish businesses and work here. It seems more difficult for a U.S. citizen to obtain work in other countries. I feel fairly free in other countries just as a visitor, but I never experienced any problems with the law elsewhere.
This statement pretty much tells you that the information is skewed in one direction.
Here are some of the things that prove we are not as free.
[ul][li]We have fewer union members[/li][li]Our tax rates are lower[/li][li]We own more hand-guns[/li][li]Our teenagers have sex more often[/li][li]The price of our gasoline is lower[/li][li]We have the most two pay check families[/li][li]We use credit cards more often (except for UK)[/li][li]Lowest percent of population covered by public health insurance[/li][li]We don’t have paid maternity leave[/ul][/li]Yeah, I cherry picked the list, but that is part of my point, since I was being as fair as they were.
Also this study uses figures as of 1991, which means that countries like Japan get great grades. It just may be that there are other countries that didn’t fare so well in the last decade.
It seems to me, that the OP needs to define just what is meant by “free”. I personally do not oppose handgun controls, but before I call in the NRA maybe we should debate whether the right to own guns is a freedom or not.
I think that’s a separate issue from freedom. The UN index quoted above “compares the amount of freedom that citizens of different countries enjoy.” (bolding mine)
I don’t know if racism was taken into consideration but if so, I think that would be a major negative for the US. Most people I know who are familiar with both US and Europe say that racism is far worse in the US. (Though Japan is even worse IMHO.)
As for Monty’s comments, how does the existance of a figurehead monarch infringe upon the citizens’ freedom? And what exactly is wrong with proportional representation? I can’t help but notice that your other criteria are very US-centric as well.
I like the fact that they seem to consider all “politically motivated demonstrations” as uniformly indicative of an undemocratic society. “Those wacky Americans would just be so much more democratic if they’d all agree on everything.”
Not to mention that they refer to Germany as an “economic powerhouse”
And FWIW, to the OP, I’ve been 9 countries (lived in two), all of them less free (legally and culturally) than the US, most markedly so.
Where is this stated or implied? It lists the number of demostrations but it doesn’t say the fewer the better.
Are you sure your definition of “free” is “be able to do the things I’m used to”? If not, what are some freedoms which Americans enjoy but Europeans do not?
I do ralize all such measures are subjective, but I’m still interested in why people think America is more free than Europe.
True the source was skewed, but these are not statements that relate to freedom, these are generally quality of life or lifestyle statements. As link 1 says
It considers the right to travel, assemble, and speak; the absence of forced labor, torture and other extreme legal punishment (such as the death penalty); freedom of political opposition, the press and trade unions; an independent judiciary; gender equality; and the legal right to trial, counsel of choice, privacy, religion and sexual practice.
No mention of credit card debt, gas prices, firearm ownership, etc. Those are not statements of individual freedom in a country they are statements of the lifestyle under a country.
As a Marxist, I’m obliged to point out that none of us are free under a system that relies on the exploitation of labor. Remember that the restrictions of market forces are just as real and just as restricting as restrictions enforced by governments.
Of course you’re a marxist, you have no money :D.
In the context of a larger argument that the US is not so hot / not as free, they list 11 nations and put the US in boldface as having more protests. It’s hard to miss the implication.
I’ve never been to Europe. The OP was about “other countries.”
At a guess, I would submit that some people would regard the hate-speech laws in much of Europe as evincing less freedom, as well as the stricter libel laws, the high taxes, and the great difficulties entreprenuers face in trying to open businesses.
Whether or not “freedom” is always the best thing is another issue; I would guess that many Europeans would say that they value other things as much or more than individual autonomy.
scr4 makes a good point about freedom being “what you’re used to”, but I’ll throw in my own II denarii in any case.
I feel far less free in the US than I do here (although of course not nearly as restricted as some dictatorships I have visited.)
When it comes to vices, America is still extremely prudish IMHO. If I wish to drink (to excess if I so choose), smoke (whatever), bet on sport or gamble or even laze around somewhere in public, I find the opportunities to do so are very limited.
I find far less diversity of opinion in the mainstream media.
If I own or rent a car I have freedom of movement. If not, I have almost none due to the woeful inadequacy of public transport and the pedestrian-unfriendliness of American civic planning.
There are a few crime-ridden “no-go” areas in some British cities but they are very small (often merely a single block centred on a rough estate) and far between, whereas there are entire suburbs in American cities where I am warned not to walk where I choose at night. (Whether your infinitely greater freedom to own firearms has any part in this is peripheral.)
As for “economic freedom”, this is perhaps an even more loaded phrase. FWIW, I am absolutely dumbfounded by the levels of homelessness in the cities of the richest nation on Earth: they are everywhere! Is the freedom to fall through the gigantic holes in the safety net “freedom” in any meaningful sense?
Finally, when I hear of the mammoth working hours and paltry holiday allowance of American employees, I cannot help but feel better off in terms of my own comparative “freedom”.
(Incidentally, I can’t see how the Queen curtails my freedom in any way, her being merely a little old German lady with a shiny hat and no real power.)
Having said all of this, I cannot help but admire the fundamental positivity and creativity inherent in what I perceive as the “American spirit”, and there are almost equally as many characteristics of the US which I find preferable to the UK.
Why not get a passport and compare for y’allselves!
The UN considers socialist health and such care a plus when considering “freedom” - so that list strikes me as silly.
My mistake, I thought that list was the criteria for the UN Human Rights index - I just skimmed over it. I’m having trouble finding information on the actual human rights index.
Umm, having free access to quality health care is not indicative of freedom? I guess it depends what you consider freedom to be. From what I can see you are free to sink or swim in the US, if you sink, well stiff bikkies for you. I don’t imagine those who don’t “swim” in the American capitalist system feel very free.
I am truly horrified that Australia is equal to the US on that list, and we don’t even have the death penalty!
Well overdue for a new government in this country. :mad:
First, there seems to be some confusion about the interpretation of the links that The Calculus of Logic provided. All those rankings do not enter into the computation of the freedom index ranking, the last one of the list. So no, neither health care nor the items kniz mentions, do play a role in that ranking. [On preview, senorbeef, the comment no longer applies to your post].
How is the UN human freedom index computed? I found this link that explains that 40 indicators (the list is on the link) are assigned a 1/0 value, and then you rank the countries according the total number of points they got. In the ranking that appears in my link (from 1985, quite outdated), the US ranks 13th, with 33 out of 40. I could immediately identify only two indicators where the US would (today) get 0: “capital punishment”, and “right to homosexuality between consenting adults” [poor wording, in my opinion; at any rate, the existence of laws against homosexual practices in many states probably warrants a 0]. Also, the US doesn’t allow US citizens to travel to Cuba (and perhaps other countries) as tourists, so perhaps the “travel abroad” in 1985 also got a 0. US dopers might have an easier time trying to identify the other possible 0’s.
Leaving aside the UN assignments of 0’s and 1’s, which leaves no room for gray (for what is worth, I didn’t find a UN human freedom index for any year after 1991), the table of 40 indicators they propose seems to me a decent starting point for discussion.
My personal experience? I have lived for many years both in Western Europe and the US, and apart from the death penalty issue and higher taxes in Europe, I don’t recall major legal differences. Yes, some of the “vice” laws in the US (alcohol, gambling…) strike me as silly (at 18, you are responsible enough to drive a car, vote, legally own guns, but you are still three years away from being able to buy beer?), but admittedly those are minor quibbles.
On the other hand, a substantial difference I noticed is to which extent money is allowed to rule the political process. For instance, in Spain, and I imagine also in other European countries, during electoral campaigns, parties are given free advertisement time on TV, which gives a fighting chance to smaller political parties. Also, some forms of campaign financing in the US would be illegal in Spain. This was explained to me as a Freedom of Speech issue, but it leaves me with the impression that in US politics, freedom of speech comes with a price tag, to a larger extent that in other Western democracies.
Thanks to alenar for the link on the origin of the “freedom index”. To be fair, the way the 2nd OP-linked page is set up does lend itself to making it look like the FI was somehow a conclusion from all the preceding stats on quality-of-life issues.
And yes, Monty, I too am wondering what the heck is “unfree” about “some” proportional representation – as long as it’s not absolute so every kook with >0.5% of the vote gets a guaranteed seat.
OK, I used the list that alenar provided. Although, they are using a 0-40 scale that only has 39 items, so I’m not sure how someone can get a 40. But whatever.
I basically came to the same score as the UN (I came up with a 35, they gave us a 33). Here’s what the US missed in order on the list:
That puts us up there with France and Norway. Higher if I could find out what the 40th criterion was.
Anyway, I think that this whole thing just goes to show you that different people have different ideas of what freedom is and any attempt to quantify it is pretty meaningless since no one can agree on what the criteria are.
I think it is fairly meaningless to rank countries in order as if “freedom” were some sort of 100 meter dash. Perhaps you could create 5 categories on a scale and slot countries in one of five degrees of freedom. I’ve travelled a lot in Western Europe and it’s pretty hard to tell the difference from the US other than that you’re lucky if stores are open a few hrs on Saturday (and forget Sunday). That may have changed, but was true in the 90s.
I’d suggest a better method to determine how free a country is: Look at the emigration rate. Obviously you can’t include countries like NK, but I think we know where they are on the freedom list. In other words, let the people decide. I don’t have the figures, but I’d put money on the fact that the US has fewer emigrants than any “western” nation. And since one might argue that certain concepts of freedom are cultural, it makes more sense to compare us to “western” countries.