Is America actually more "Free" than most other Democractic Countries?

Great Debates
1

In This thread on National Anthems, the point was raised that America’s status as “Most Free” country might actually be more PR than actual fact- and I’m inclined to agree with Calm Kiwi on this.

That’s not to say the US isn’t a “Free” country, but that citizens other Democratic countries- such as the UK, Canada, Australia, New Zealand, most of Europe, India, Japan, and all the other countries we traditionally associate with “Civilisation”- are just as “Free” as those of the US.

I mean, in all these countries, Parliament is made up of elected representatives (and not Juntas headed by people with ornate hats whose titles begin with “Generalissimo”, “Comrade-Premier”, “The Most Holy”, or “Dread Pirate”), and, for the most part, I’d posit that people in most democratic countries have pretty much the same freedoms as people in the US- not necessarily explicitly spelt out in a Constitution, but present in some form or another. We’ve all got the right to freedom of speech (with varying degrees of restrictions, but nothing that’s really likely to affect the average person’s right to voice their opinion on anything), habeas corpus, the right to vote, etc.

I’ve visited the US a number of times and I certainly don’t think I’m any “less free” living in Australia or NZ as I would be if I lived in the US- if anything, I’d argue there are more laws and taxes in any given US State than there are in a comparable Australian one (or all of NZ, for that matter). For example, I don’t have to worry about working out the sales tax on something I’ve purchased by mail order from New South Wales, or whether I owe duty on a bottle of bourbon purchased in Melbourne but consumed in partly in South Australia and partly in Queensland. If I win big at the Casino, I don’t have to pay tax on the winnings, and if I am pulled over for an RBT and one of the passengers has a bottle of alcohol in his or her hand, I don’t need to worry about being fined for breaking an “open container” law (to name an example from another recent thread).

I’ve also spent quite a bit of time in the UK, which people accuse of being a “Nanny State”, but again, I don’t think your average person in the UK is “Less Free” than someone in, say, Massachusetts. Similarly, people living in South Australia aren’t “Less Free” than people in Oregon, and, if anything, I’d argue gun owners in California are “Less Free” than gun owners in New Zealand.

So, what sayeth you? Is America really the most “Free” country, or are there just a lot of people in the US who believe their own PR? The lines are open… let’s hear your views.

2

Being a Canadian who works on both sides of the border, there’s no difference in freedom. I’m sure a variety of folks will claim the U.S. is more free because you can own guns easier, but

A) You can own guns in Canada, and
B) That’s a miniscule part of what an average person’s “freedom” entails.

3

I’d argue that in a lot of ways, some other countries (Canada, the UK, hell, even South Africa) are more free than the U.S. - certainly, for a particular minority, who in those countries are free to marry who they choose regardless of gender.

Also, in a lot of other countries, fire-at-will doesn’t exist, there’s national healthcare and there are long mandated leave periods, so workers are a little more free of economic 'enslavement" than US ones. Of course, non-US employers are then less free. But it’s a question of priorities, IMO.

4

Warning: you are now entering a cite-free zone.

I think the difference is that constitution.

Many arguments I’ve seen on the SDMB bang on about the “problem” of “Federal government”. Well for the most part, that’s what we all have in the “Free World”. With the exception of Australia, the vast majority of everything is centrally administered, and local governments generally enforce relatively minor things like garbage, parking, etc.

If you look, therefore, at how the US constitution, and add in how much control the Federal government has over John Q. American, and how his freedoms are enshrined in the founding of the country, it does seem to be a lot “freer” than the rest of us.

In my opinion, the reason this is a myth is that the states themselves have a much greater influence on people’s lives. And many US states’ ordinances appear to be far more draconian and micromanagerial than our centrally legislated stuff. (E.g. my having to drive over the state line from CT into NY on a Sunday to buy a can of beer.)

However, there’s absolutely no way of answering the question, as we have different standards about what is free. As alluded to in the OP, I too can drive around the place with a carload of people who are chugging beer bongs and vomiting out the window, and as long as I’m sober, that’s fine with the cops (though I might be a bit annoyed). On the flipside, few of us in the UK give a shit about guns, and having them heavily legislated against doesn’t affect John Q. Brit.

Again, we appear to have high taxes over here in the UK. However, I seem to recall that the overall tax burden between the UK and the US, once local and sales taxes are taken into consideration, is pretty much exactly the same.

There’s a libertarian meme, too, that our NHS makes us less free. For me, I think it makes us more, as we don’t have to pay those whopping great insurance premiums, and getting sick doesn’t cripple us - unless it’s a disease that does, in fact, cripple us.

In other words: unanswerable.

5

Well, what freedoms are present elsewhere that are denied to americans?

  • Freedom to marry whomever you want
  • Freedom to be gay, and defend your country at the same time
  • Freedom to smoke pot

Keep in mind, too, that a number of states still have laws on the books saying that atheists cannot vote, hold public office, or testify in court. So, freedom of religion - yes. Freedom from religion - not so much.

6

It bugs me to no end that the Independence Day festivities on the National Mall here in DC involve passing through metal detectors and not being allowed to drink a beer. :mad:

Land of the free, my ass.

7

And then there’s all the ‘freedoms from’ some other countries have more of. Freedom from fear that an accident or illness will lead to financial ruin etc balanced against freedom from the taxation involved. Swings and roundabouts I guess.

8

Which states are those, and are these laws actually enforced, or buried in some dusty book somewhere and nobody remembers they exist?

9

Well, one could say that here in the US we have the freedom from ridiculously high levels of taxation or for paying an arm and a leg for fuel for our cars. We are free from some (though not all) of the nanny government intervention in some of the countries mentioned thus far in the thread. Certainly other countries have freedom of speech…but in some cases it is a selective freedom based on their governments (I’ve seen a lot of instances where things concerning WWII and the holocaust are banned, for instance).

I think it boils down too what you are used too. I found a lot of the European ways confining both when I visited and talking to people who live in various countries (it varies quite a bit however depending on which country you are talking about). When I was in Japan and South Korea I felt VERY confined at times and would definitely feel uncomfortable if I lived there all the time with some of the restrictions. Canada…less so…I really didn’t feel that confined or uncomfortable when I lived there. It was just subtly…different.

I guess the answer is that every system has it’s good points and bad ones…and it’s all about what the majority of it’s citizens think and feel. By and large American’s are comfortable with how things are here. As the majority of citizens of other Democratic nations (and even some un-Democratic ones) are comfortable with how THEIR system works.

-XT

10

I’m not sure that any state has those laws, but if any state did, they would be unenforcible, and a case of archaic laws that just never got removed.

Any such law would certainly be unconstitutional.

11

Link to Freedom House’s map of the world, assessing comparative freedoms in different countries.

12

What did you find “confining?”

13

I think a big part of what Americans think of as freedom as actually not a matter of law, but of custom. Specifically, America has a culture of individualism: do whatever you want, it’s not anyone else’s business. European, and especially East Asian, countries have a culture of community: following the norms of and supporting your group is more important than your individual activities. This is a generalization, of course, but there is a real difference.

When I visit my in-laws in Korea, this cultural force is very apparent. Anyone who doesn’t follow cultural norms is subject to huge pressures from their family, friends and co-workers. In America, you can just say “screw that” and do whatever you want. In Korea, your friends will try to dissuade you, because they will stigmatized because their friend did something “different”. Fortunately for me, my foreign face gives me and my family an automatic get-out-awkward-situation card.

So even though you may have the legal right to do something, if you do something outside of the societal norm, others will not make it easy for you. America feels more “free” because our culture is more accepting of differences.

14

More free in some ways, less free in others.

The older I get, the more at odds I feel with the balance of freedoms in the US. Guns aren’t important to me, affordable health care is. We officially have freedom of the press, but it’s all about money. We officially have freedom of speech, but tell that to Fred Phelps. I’m free to have a Judeo-Christian religion. Yay me.

The people who crow about the freedoms in the US are the people whose pet freedoms are being honored. The rest of us know that it’s a matter of luck as to whether we can find a place where what’s important to us is protected.

15

Well, another thing to remember is that back in 1776 there were damn few republics of any sort, much less liberal republics. Sure, we inherited a lot of our notions of freedom from the UK, but in 1787 when the US constitution was ratified the United States WAS the most free country in the world.

Now, it just so happens that some of you other countries have caught up to us, and are now just as free as we are, after various trials and tribulations and the occasional shortening of a king or two, or various continent ravaging wars. So that rhetoric that America is the Land of the Free is a bit outdated nowadays.

Also keep in mind that up until the late 80s, the decidedly unfree communist bloc was still a going concern, and plenty of people were convinced that totalitarian dictatorship was a more effective (for certain values of effective) system than liberal democracy and would eventually win out.

16

I hear what you’re saying but in the USA this ‘freedom’ seems to be quickly subject to social and legal sanction when the country is engaged in a bout of collective hysteria like the 1950’s communist witch-hunts or not supporting ‘the war’.

There are times when dissent does not seem to be tolerated by a segment of the population.

17

It’s a long list. Certain laws. The tax burden and how deeply some of their social type programs run. Some of their employment laws or practices. Again, it varies from country too country. I particularly found Japan too be very confining too me as an American.

My point however was that THEY don’t see it that way, by and large. It’s what you are used too. In the US the majority of our citizens are comfortable with the way things are…things that make folks from OTHER Democratic countries uneasy or that THEY feel are ‘confining’…or just odd.

I think this kind of thread is a backlash against how arrogant some American’s are about OUR freedom…as if the way we do it is the only way. The converse however is also true…they way THEY may do things isn’t necessarily the way WE like it either.

-XT

18

Ha! That may be so, but do you have any idea how much freedom it generates knowing that the state will pick up the tab if we get sick, lose our jobs, get in an accident or cause involuntary harm to others? That if we are poor, the state ensures our kids will have mostly equal opportunity to good schooling? How much more free at our jobs we feel knowing our boss can’t fire us at will, like American bosses can? Security, not having to worry, not being subject to the whim of your boss, the money of your clients, the fiercer lawyer of your opponent… I can’ t think of anything that frees the mind more.

I completely agree :slight_smile:

19

Yes. Americans can be just as intolerant as anyone else.

But there’s more to freedom than just political freedom. In Korea, there’s strong social pressures on every aspect of your life: the school you try to get into, the clothes you wear, the “class” of your spouse, the number of children you have, the church you go to, the gifts you give your elders and superiors, where you live… There’s very little part of your life that society doesn’t have expectations about. Political ideology is only a small part of it.

Americans often focus on the few things where we feel our freedom is restricted, losing sight of the wide latitude we have in most of our life choices. We don’t have complete freedom, but in my opinion the U.S. feels qualitatively more free. And yet Korea is a free country: the population can and does force the government to do the people want.

20

There are several states with laws like that, in fact. IIRC, about a dozen states, mostly in the South and Northeast, have or had laws restricting elected office to those who believed in God. Most of them have been overturned since, but I believe LA and AR still have them on the books, though I’m pretty sure they’re not enforced.*
(I did research on this last year for a thread in GD, but alas the file with my results is on my old computer at home (150 miles away), and I seriously doubt any of my family would be able to find it, so I won’t provide a cite for the moment. If anyone asks, I will try to give one.)