Is the U.S really all that free?

Great Debates
41

scr4: I’m against any kind of monarch, on principle. The idea that someone can be born into his position as Head of State is medieval (in the sense of unenlightened).

I’m also against proportional representation because that throws out the idea of “one person, one vote.” And before you toss in the US’s Electoral College, remember that also has a “one person, one vote” system–it’s just those persons are the Electors.

You can say that my comments above are US-centric or you can view them another way: My comments were in response to a question regarding how other countries compared to the US as to freedom. Since the person positing the question posited the US as a reference point, I went with that. You could also realize that my appraisals are based on what I consider to be a good indicator of freedom in a country (such as trial by jury) and it just so happens that the US has those indicators. I did leave out a couple of things; for example, Japan’s draconian implementation of its death penalty (notifying the family and the press only after the prisoner’s executed), its prejudicial citizenship law, and a few other things.

42

Since neither the people of France nor the people of Germany have a right to free speech or assembly I don’t see how they can rate higher than the US.

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The problem with the list is it just says ‘more free’ or ‘less free’ without explaining what the terms mean, and is pretty obviously biased once you dig down into it. It’s pretty obviously trying to put the US towards the bottom and biased towards ‘what europeans do’ instead of any objectively defined set of ‘freedom’.

As others have pointed out, even if you believe that restrictions on owning certain objects are good, it’s hard to say that one country is ‘more free’ because common people (the nobil… er, politicans are exceptions, of course) are forbidden/restricted to own one set of dangerous objectes (firearms) but then this country is ‘more free’ because people are allowed to own a different set of objects (drugs). The death penalty bit also makes no sense; a country where spitting on the sidewalk was punishable by 10 years in jail would count as more free than a country with less draconian laws overall but where murder carries the death penalty.

Europe comes out way behind on issues like free speech, which they don’t even believe in in principle. For example, advocacy of and in some cases merely displaying symbols some mass-murdering political idealogies (nazis and the like) is illegal, but only selected ones (advocacy of communism or display of the hammer and sickle isn’t generally illegal). Simply having a character say that ‘Islam is the stupidest religion’ landed a French author in jail, and “hate speech” laws in general are established in a number of countries and spreading like crazy. The whole concept of privacy (certainly a form of freedom) barely exists; registries of all sorts are gleefully collected and collated to an absurd degree, and universal surveilence is coming rapidly (England is probably the farthest along on that path).

Before ‘who is the most free?’ is a sensible question, you need to define ‘freedom’, which is a debate in and of iteself.

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If nothing else, this article World press freedom ranked, should at least confirm that freedom of speech is very much valued in most European countries. To say that europeans in general don’t believe in free speech is plain wrong.

I truly hope you can see the difference between preaching the Nazi agenda and communism. In general the hate-speech laws deals with stuff which might incite violence and/or discrimination against minorities. A thing which Nazism definately does.

One last thing: While it’s nothing to be proud of, the Danish government actually funds a public Nazi controlled radio. It has, as of yet, not been possible to shut it down due to ‘freedom of speech’ which is guaranteed by our constitution (yes, we have one as well).

Cite ?

Cite ?

45

There are things the U.S isn’t quite so free on. Examples:

21 drinking age. In most countries it’s younger.

Prostitution: Illegal except in certain parts of Nevada.

Recreational Drug Use: Illegal, for the most part. With the exception of Alcohol and Tobacco.

Sex: “Sodomy” outlawed in many states, bad news for gays. In some states, even oral sex between a married heterosexual couple is illegal.

Death Penalty: I’d consider the right to not be executed by the state as a freedom. We have the DP for Juveniles, which makes us a minority even under countries with the death penalty.

Criminal Justice in General: We have asset forfeiture, mandatory minimums, “three strikes and your out”. I guess freer than China or Saudi Arabia.

Universal Healthcare:

What about freedom to not die in a gutter somewhere because you can’t afford proper medical care? I think matters of life and death are more important than financial freedom.

46

Fine, Blalron, but once again we’ve run into grading by a non-value neutral set of criterion. Which is fine, because I don’t think it’s possible to do so.

Another demonstration of why this “more free, less free” exercise is silly.

47

It’s plain right, as evinced by your very own post. You’re sitting there defending ‘hate speech’ and ‘inappropriate political speech’ laws (interestingly enough, while engaging in historical revisionism about Communist violence), which quite simply means that you don’t value actual free speech, though you may support people speaking freely on topics you approve of.

No, I don’t see any significant difference between Nazism and Communism; there’s some different philosophical background, but both share the same fundamental value of exalting the state and hating individualism, and both consistently result in mass murder when put into actual practice. The fact that a number of people try to whitewash communist atrocities has nothing to do with whether the two philosophies are any less dangerous.

I’m sorry, but including the historical flag in a WW2 wargame does not incite violence and/or discrimination against minorities, yet it’s illegal to do so in Germany and other parts of Europe. Selling an object that has a swastica on it does not incite violence and/or discrimination against minorities, yet it is illegal to do so in France and other parts of Europe. Claiming that the holocaust didn’t happen does not incite violence and/or discrimination against minorities, yet it’s illegal in Germany and other parts of Europe. Well, unless you stretch the definition of ‘incite’ so much that it’s pretty much meaningless.

For the French author, the original story (I misremembered the ‘character in a book’ bit; apparently it’s his own comments):
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/entertainment/arts/2260922.stm

A little more about the trial:

However, it turns out he’s been found not guilty:

But apparently the only criteria for guilt was “Whether the remarks made to Lire were intentionally insulting,” which just goes to back my point even further. ell, France’s “Human Rights League” supported the prosecution, which really says it all about “Freedom” over there.

As far as various registries go, I can go dig up specific individual laws if you really but I’m referring to things like the registration of TVs and other electronics (France and UK are the ones I’ve specifically seen this for), required notification of change of address to local authorities (German) and requirement to have papers to present at all times (pretty much all but the UK AFAICT), required registries of demographic (race, religion, and similar) information (pretty much all Europe) and similar laws. Before I mess around with looking up any of these, do you agree that government tracking of more aspects of citizen’s lives results in someone being less free or not?

48

Ah Blalorn, no offense Mr. Ignorant Jerk, people die by the minute. Think. What can we do to stop this ridculous slaugther? We are a pitiful people. God help our resolve.

This is an idea reinconsumate. Smile.

49

Yeah, I’d agree with you there Neurotik. Of all the posts in this entire thread, in reality, the only two rankings which seemed to have any sort of “quantifiable” legitimcacy were the rankings to do with “economic freedom” and “freedom of the press”.

The first list factors in things like “black market activity” and stuff like that, so I was impressed by that list. And the second list - whilst more subjective - also seems to be a real reflection on how much a given country’s goverment chooses to use the press as a manipulation tool - which invariably is a pretty accurate reflection on a lack of personal liberty I tend to find.

50

Right, it has to do with a general sense of freedom – which indeed boils down to broad ranges of relativity.

For instance, in many of the countries with socialized health-care the general consensus of the society is that the costs ARE reasonable. Doesn’t make it a Universal Truth. Health care in the USA is payment-dependent, but the majority of the population CAN pay, at least in part, through insurance. But socialized medicine is certainly better than care exclusively for a tiny privileged elite – which is what many countries in the world have.

For another instance, in the USA there is as of the latest polls a majority that believes the Death Penalty is appropriate for certain crimes. Doesn’t make it a Universal Truth. Sure, it absolutely prevents recidivism; but no death penalty means there’s never a horribly irreversible conviction mistake and it may be debated if the implementation is properly carried out as it is. OTOH it’s not like women bearing a child out of wedlock will be stoned to death, or a local Agriculture Inspector accused of taking bribes will be shot in the back of the head the same afternoon and have the bullet invoiced to his family.

Once I was reading a newspaper article about Mongolia after the fall of communism, where this Mongol in his yurt told the reporter: “I like it here. It is a free country. I can go anywhere, and just pitch my tent for the night in any place under the sky without asking anyone, and nobody bothers me.” then he turns to the reporter and asks “I hear America is a free country. Do you do the same things?”

51

As an Englishman now living in the US, I feel less free in the US than I did in the UK. Many of my ex-pat Brit friends have expressed similar sentiments.

It is possible that your views get skewed when you move to another country because you immediately notice things that are less free in your new country, because it affects what you are used to. Conversely, you may not notice new freedoms as much because you are not used to having them and therefore they are not important to you. Examples - being fingerprinted to get a driver’s license makes me feel less free, but the right to own a handgun is of no importance to me as I have no intention of ever doing so.

52

According to the Freedom House rating system, we score a 1 (the best score possible) at both political rights and civil liberties. Only a few other nations (mostly in Western Europe) match us.

53

Quitesane, I lived in Denmark for an all too short period. There are so many things that I think are superior there. Several things stand out most for me:

The country is virtually free of poverty.
Everyone’s work is respected.
I felt safe at all times. (As a woman living in a U.S. city, that’s a biggie for me)
The air is fresh and the water clean.
The people are warm and open-minded.
There is no trash in the streets and roadways and parks.

I have never felt so free in my life! I know that you pay high taxes for some of your privileges, but for me it would have been worth it. In the US, tax money too often goes for friviolous things.

That’s not always true in the US. People in HMOs often do not get to see the doctor of their own choosing. Doctors can’t always charge what they would like to for Medicare patients. And insurance companies such as Blue Cross will refuse to pay at the full rate if the doctors or hospitals charge too much. The poor and the elderly often cannot afford to see a doctor or buy medication. I don’t think that they would feel very free.

For me the greatest lack of freedom in America is caused by the people themselves. We are often terribly intolerant of the religious beliefs and political opinions of others and are quick to slap a label on someone and then react to that person as if the label were true. I saw a peace protestor hit by someone with large U.S. flag on a wooden pole. Which one was acting in an “unAmerican” way? Which was trying to deny freedoms to the other?

54

“Kindly explain the similarity between dining in a four star restaurant and going to the doctor.”

Neither grows on tress.

Both should be paid for by the recipient of the benefit.

The lack of either cannot be construed as a restriction on freedom.

55

I keep wondering how long it’s going to be before I can emigrate to a more civilized country as a refugee from political prosecution.

The way things are going, I give it five years before my boyfriend and I make a run for Denmark.

56

Milum, do not post direct personal insults in this forum.

57

**

You must have misunderstood me since i personally disagree with these “hate-speech” laws.

The reason why Communism is OK (according to these laws), and Nazism is not, is that the first doesn’t single out any minorities, doesn’t incite hatred, violence and discrimination, all things which the latter does. It has nothing to do with what anybody approves of.

Would you approve of a law banning public speeches which encourage blowing up tall buildings with lots of people in them?

**
I agree.

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Basically the broadcasting net (and 1 channel, as required by law) is public. If you own a TV you must pay this tax. If not, you get to keep your money. It’s not like they do or can enter your home and see if you own a TV. I don’t understand how this may offend you.

**
Never experienced or heard of this and i’ve travelled in pretty much all of Europe. I can’t rule out that such laws exists in some countries… But it’s definately not the norm.

**
My local hospital knows my race, they know my religion does not limit the medical attention i can recieve. They also have my bloodtype on record. Other than that, i have no idea what you’re talking about. All this information is confidential by the way. Not even the police has access.

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Somewhat. If it is convenient for the individuals and isn’t abused i see no problem with superficial registries.

58

Actually, you pretty much can in many parts of the country. Someone might ask what you were doing, and its always polite and very legally justifying to ask people who’s land you’re staying on, but pretty much yeah. There is an awful lot of not-immediately-used land in the US.

Not many people will know or care if you go out into a grove of trees and nap for the night.

59

I can take out a full page ad in the New York times and call the President a gigantic booger eater.

Nobody could say or do anything to me for doing so.
Tell me one person who is working legally in the US, even sven, who is being oppressed by the working system. Marx was wrong, there is no working class revolution, the working class is dwindling every year. Marx thought that the middle class would fall into the working class, and instead the almost unparallelled standard of living afforded us by our Capitalist way seem to be doing just the opposite.

There are a vast array of security nets that insure that anyone who actually goes to the hospital gets treated. There are a plethora of free clinics all over the place. Medical care is there, although you may have to fill out some paperwork.

When I fill out my taxes, there are no compulsory taxes to the political party in charge. There are no taxes paid into the various churches around here.

I can buy pretty much any product I want, when I want. Cars, TV’s, guns… I can buy whatever.

If I so desire, I can pull up roots and move 1000 miles. There is nothing to stop me from constantly moving from one end of the country to the other.

I can go to book stores and buy almost any book ever printed, if it’s still in print. I can buy the Communist Manifesto, Mein Kampf, and the Anarchist Cookbook. And nobody will stop me, and my name won’t go down in some big ledger somewhere.

I don’t have to worry about a black Maria pulling up and making me an unperson for taking out a full page ad calling the president a booger eater.

If I get enough signatures, I can run for office. I can run for any office in the US, as long as I fulfill the requirements. Hell, the most powerful man in the worlds only job requirement is to be a certain age and to be born in the US.

I can choose to join the military or not. It’s not compulsory.

All in all, I say I feel pretty free. And with the exception of some other Western European nations, and our good brother to the North, I can’t think of anywhere else that even comes close.

60

It seems that there are always some conservatives who consider any claim to any freedom other than the right to suffer and die as an infringement on their freedoms.