So I’m arguing with this evo-psych disciple on the subject of the credibility of the field. In the debate he states that “all life exist to reproduce and make copies of their genes” and that the 'reproductive urge" is actually the ‘distal’ or ‘ultimate’ cause for the desire for sex, or the sexual urge. The reason sex feels good is to incentivize us to continue the species.
My argument is that there is no such thing as ulterior motives outside of a conscious mind conceiving of those motives. What people are doing is exactly and precisely what they are doing. If a man is seeking sex, and is not doing it for the conceived purpose of having children, he is doing it to have sex, and for no other reason. If an animal is seeking to mount its mate, it is doing so because it wants sex, not 'in order to" reproduce. Even the lifeless machine in the factory does not exist to build an automobile outside of the humans who conceive of this as its purpose. There is no “reproductive urge.” There is only an urge to engage in a behavior which sometimes happens to lead to reproduction.
So all these conscious minds just independently realize they like sex? The reproduction urge was evolved long before self awareness and higher cognition came about. The conscious mind is just making an explanation for an evolutionary urge. Consciously most people don’t want tons of kids or to be obese, but most people enjoy sex and fatty foods. The survival urge comes first, the conscious pleasure comes second.
But it isn’t just for procreation, people do or for emotional bonding and stress relief too.
Your argument is incomplete. Yes, animals mate because they want to mate. But why do they want to mate in the first place? You refer to the proximate causes of behavior, your friend refers to the ultimate causes of behavior.
Is that the “purpose” in the sense that someone (or Someone) intended it that way? Ask your pastor, guru, or swami that question. But the reason that animals like sex is because among their ancestors, those who liked sex had more offspring than those that did not. So in that sense, yes, reproduction is the reason why organisms like sex.
Yes, the purpose of sex is reproduction. I am surprised this is even a question to debate. All life has a primary goal of reproducing itself. Consciousness does not play into it as all life, conscious or not, reproduces in some manner. We are no more special in this regard than any other life on the planet regardless of our sentience and supposed free will. We are naturally wired to want to make more of ourselves. it is not a coincidence that the strongest urge most humans have, and the most pleasurable when acted upon, is precisely what initiates procreation.
Some animals use sex as a social calming mechanism. I’m thinking specifically of bonobos. And many animals use sex (or sex-like acts such as mounting another animals) as a show of dominance.
Out of a dozen possible opportunities to satisfy the sexual urge, some will be more appealing than others to us because of their likely contribution to our happiness, which in turn is still largely about satisfying the sexual urge but in a more complex sense. One wishes to connect with a partner who is loving, safe, with whom one has a delicious frisson; there should ideally be a cozy environment in which to pursue the relaitonship and raise the childrens; that cozy environment should include by expansion the larger context, a good society in which for the kidlings to grow up and pursue satisfying fulfilling lives of their own.
Some religions designate the sexual urge “sacred”, which (at best) means recognizing that if everyone values what their sexual urge is telling them and takes time to tune in to it and interpret it and so forth, it’s a very warmly positive pro-social urge and not the selfish disruptive thing it’s often viewed as.
Seems pretty obvious that it serves a social purpose in human societies as well.
But like a lot of philosophical discussions, the OP’s debate seems to hinge on a rather boring semantic argument. He and his friend seem to agree on the basic facts, and just differ on what exactly the word “purpose” should mean. They should just flip a coin to see who is right.
I agree with the evo-psych disciple. The OP’s argument that people and other animals have sex because they want to have sex is begging the question. It just leads to the issue of why do animals want to have sex rather than not want to have sex? The evo-psych disciple provides an answer - animals want to have sex because they have genes for wanting to have sex and they have those genes because genes for wanting to have sex replicate better than genes that don’t.
I think you’re missing the point that the OP is making. The fact is, it is extremely unlikely that any part of the subconscious has a desire to reproduce, or even an awareness of what that is. So there is no hidden urge.
Furthermore, on the “goal” of life is a value judgment. You might just as well say the goal is to become extinct, and we’re the unfortunate failures; because we have suboptimal traits like enjoying sex.
I won’t deny that sex has other purposes. But I think it’s clear that sex’s primary purpose (from an evolutionary standpoint) is reproduction. All of the other purposes for which we have sex are just secondary reasons that hitched a ride on an established trait.
I wish I had a cite for this but I recall reading there are only three animals on earth that have sex “for fun” (as opposed to reproduce).
Humans, dolphins and I forget the third (another primate I think).
Without a doubt our lust for sex is a result of evolutionary programming to reproduce. But clearly for humans sex has transcended merely procreative purposes.
I certainly am at a point in my life where I have a very conscious urge not to reproduce (anymore). Since my wife and I are both secure in knowing we cannot, our sex drive is higher and less complicated.
I agree that “goal” can be a troublesome term. Genes are just complex molecules; I don’t see how anyone can argue that they have goals and desires and needs.
So it’s probably better to use “causes”. Genes are a mechanism that causes animals to do things. And the things that genes cause animals to do creates more genes. So you can see a self-reinforcing cycle here where A leads to B and B leads to A.
I don’t see any equivalent causative agent or effect in extinction. There doesn’t appear to be anything that causes species to die out and, at the same time, is created by species dying.
Life actively produces more life. But death doesn’t actively produce more death. Death is just something that happens.
But I’d say that having fun is just another secondary reason like social bonding or establishing dominance. It’s a characteristic we added to a trait which was evolved for the primary purpose of reproduction. If we reproduced by some other means, we wouldn’t have evolved sex just for the purposes of having fun.
That my conscious mind is interested in no means that my subconscious mind isn’t also. At the most basic level, below even the subconscious, we are wired to want to perform actions that will lead to reproduction, even if we don’t realize what the result of these actions are. My dog had no realization that being taken off to Guide Dogs would lead to an annoying litter of puppies a few months later.
The OP is asking, “Is the ‘ultimate’ purpose of the sexual urge reproduction?”
Without question the initial impetus for sex is reproduction. Mother Nature built that into all creatures.
But without doubt humans have taken it a step or three further. I would say MOST of the time humans have sex it is NOT in order to reproduce. We do it for a host of other reasons than procreation.
Humans are probably unique among animals in that we’re the only ones who ever have sex for any reason other than pleasure (though it’s usually pleasure for us, too). A human can “lie back and think of England” and have sex specifically with the intention of reproduction, but other animals lack the cognitive ability to make that connection. A dog humping a bitch, or even a dog humping a person’s leg or the furniture, isn’t thinking “this is going to make puppies”; he’s just thinking “this feels good”.
Of course, the reason why sex is pleasurable is because of reproduction, but that’s equally true of us and all other animals. And most of the other roles sex plays in animal behavior (dominance, bonding, calming, etc.) in turn derive from the fact that sex is pleasurable.
