PatronAnejo, I’d be intrigued to see your proof that at the end of the Iran-Contra mess, the elder Bush ended up with $3.8 billion. Could you provide some evidence or a cite?
I understand that what they did back then was illegal and outside the bounds of the Consitution, but I don’t remember where it included an attack on America. Clearly, the fact that you can write a scenario where the Establishment attacks the Establishment means that it is conceivable. Does this somehow mean that making such a suggestion without any proof greater than cynicism is something less than disgusting?
Y’know, I was wondering if anyone would bring this up.
Let me hasten to say that I don’t believe it for a moment.
But let’s cut Jackas a little slack. I mean, does the CIA have such a sterling reputation that we just can’t imagine they are capable of commiting some pretty horrendous acts to further their agenda?
I have to admit that something like Jackas’s scenario briefly crossed my nasty suspicious mind (early in the disaster, before the towers fell). “Holy shit, what if the government engineered this in order to finally create the total police state they seem to want…?”
Of course, I realized that it could not be the case. Not that I don’t think the CIA might be capable of creating some sort of “terrorist” incident in order to advance some murky plan they had, but even they would not go do these lengths. I do credit them with some consciense. And this would be massive overkill. If they wanted to create an incident that would have the US public howling for the blood of bin Laden, et al., they could have done it without causing such massive death, property damage, and economic hardship. Say, (nasty suspicious mind goes to work) hijack a plane and fly it into the statue of liberty.
Now don’t jump all over me for “baseless speculation” or whatever. As I said, I don’t believe it’s true. My point is that, given some of the past actions of our government, it’s not completely unreasonable that they might briefly spring to mind when one casts about for possible suspects for this horrible act.
Provide some cites supporting the US government turning [violently] on it’s own people if you are going to persist in this. I’m talking about fact-based accounts, not general supposition. Your unfounded conspiracy theories are wholly inappropriate.
Robb:
No-one is saying that GHWB ended up with $3.8 billion in his checking account. The money went to fund Contra operations in Central America after Congress shut down military aid to the rebels.
Waverly:
Well, Robb has already alluded to:
[ul]
[li]The Tuskeegee Syphillis Study, in which the United States Public Health Service not only witheld treatement for syphillis from 399 African-American males, they ensured that the men would recieve no outside treatment for the condition. This study was not ended until 1972.[/li][li]The Missouri Compromise, through which the United States Congress named slavery a State Institution recognized by the national sovereignty.[/li][/ul]
I have referred to
[ul]
[li]The Iran-Contra Affair, in which the CIA Director and the Vice President conspired to subvert the will of Congress by diverting drug monies, counterfeited currency, and proceeds of arm sales to terrorist sponsor-nations to support a foreign army; and[/li][li]The October Surprise, in which the Republican leadership treasonously undermined the efforts of the sitting administration to free hostages being held by Iranian terrorists[/li][/ul]
PatronAnejo
what you said was:
and
What you seem to be saying is that the elder Bush was left with control over $3.8 billion. I didn’t read this to mean that it was in his own account.
But, you’ve asserted that he is the only living person in control of the money.
Back this up, or abandon it.
And while you are at it, would you please provide something more than your own assertation that the following is true.
Finally, I ask you again: Does your ability to conceive that the US government could do such a thing mean that making such a suggestion without any proof greater than cynicism is something less than disgusting?
Which government programs receive extra funding as a result of the attacks on the WTC? Does this help W get his SDI or Star Wars or whatever we’re calling his Maginot line in space program funded?
Who in our government will benefit by an attempt at bringing down the economy of the western world?
Comparing the WTC attacks to the Iran/Contra swindle is apples & oranges.
As for the OP
[sarcasm]
It was done by Damn Dirty Apes
[/sarcasm]
some people will believe ANYTHING.
PatronAnejo:
Those are regrettable, embarrassing episodes in US history. You forgot to mention the internment of Japanese Americans during WWII and the McCarthy trails, both are black marks of equal proportion, but you missed the point:
You would like us to believe that the US government is capable of mass-murder of it’s citizens. As support you cite instances of injustice and abuse of power, but not murder. You give the facts ill-treatment by making the assumption that republicans intentionally undermined efforts to free the hostages. You take the Missouri compromise out of context in it’s time in place in history. You forget that the the US aired this dirty laundry, apologized, and attempted to move on.
Make me believe that some hypothetical misguided patriots would kill their own, cripple commerce, attack the nerve center of the military, shut down the nation’s financial center, and risk extending or worsening the present recession. Give me an example of when it has been done before, outline the motives, describe the plan that was implemented, name the person in charge. I don’t want to hear about a mysterious and unknowable entity whom you simply call ‘the government’. Tell me who by name or position. Or is this all to satisfy paranoid conspiracy fantasies?
You have a very suitable user name.
Except that incredible fucking moron would be better!
This will cost the United States at LEAST 20 Billion dollars.
What would be the motive for taking 20 billion out of your pocket?
PatronAnejo
You really think that the government that made the Missouri Comprise is the SAME government we have today?
PatronAnejo wrote:
Do you really believe that our people used drug monies and counterfeited currency for Iran-Contra? You’re going out on a limb there. But aside from those, another way to view this is that some people in the executive branch were going around laws passed by Congress, which was trying to subvert the powers of the executive branch. Those people were still trying to do what was in our country’s best interest even though they were handicapped by Congress, so they found a clever way to open up relations with Iran (which was needed) by selling them weapons, and help our friends in Central America keep the commies from gaining another foothold in the Western Hemisphere. It was a win-win situation, but it needed to be kept low-profile.
I’m stating that as one of the participants might have rationalized it, but my point is that they sincerely believed that they were doing the right thing for our country. I don’t think there is any doubt about this, because none of the players could have benefitted personally.
As for the OP, let’s entertain the idea that it could have been the work of US government insiders. What would it have taken? I think a group of less than 50 people could have pulled it off technically. However, it would have taken even more than that to plant evidence against the Arabs. And you would have to find at least a dozen to be willing to give up their lives for it.
It’s just not a realistic scenario that 50 people with these sentiments could find each other and pull this off. We’re talking mass murder of American citizens here. There’s an old saying that two people can keep a secret, provided one of them is dead, and it applies here. No way 50 people could keep that a secret. This same argument, BTW, eliminates the possibility of any conspiracy in JFK’s death.
Well, it seems a bit farfetched to believe that the US govt would do this. After all, where’s the gain? Oh, sure, this will surely take the pressure of Bush for the irresponsible size and distribution of the tax cut. But this seems a bit of overkill.
On the other hand, this is a great way to make sure that Isreal gets to keep the unquestioned support of the US, and none of their citizens were harmed. But then again, if we ever figure out who actually did it, then they are screwed.
And therein lies the reason that this line of reasoning is bogus. The downside to getting caught is just too huge compared the upside of getting away with framing Bin Laden.
Sorry, this just doesn’t fly.
What if… Gary Condit did it?
Wait, wait, hear me out! Gary Condit realized that the news media would NEVER stop dwelling on his affair with Chandra Levy unless a much bigger, juicier story came along.
After all, Robert Blake was front-page, headline news until the Condit story broke! Once the juicier Condit story came along, the media lost all interest in Robert Blake.
So… Gary Condit conspired with some insane Arabs to blow up the WTC, and get himself out of the headlines for good.
Personally, I think the attack was masterminded by a consortium of executives from America’s cable news networks. After all, the Condit news cycle was getting a little stale…
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Dammit astorian! Stop swooping in and taking my jokes from me! (Though it is, seriously, ridiculous that CNN was interviewing random people in a shoe factory a couple hours ago. To shoe factory worker: “Do you think this will affect the future of air travel in America?” Me: “Do you think there are about a billion more appropriate people you could be asking that question?”)
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“Provide some cites supporting the US government turning [violently] on it’s own people if you are going to persist in this. I’m talking about dact-based accounts, not general supposition. Your unfounded conspiracy theories are wholly inappropriate.”
Waco, Kent State, Ruby Ridge and more I can’t think of at the moment. It crossed my paranoid mind as well. Was it really so important to arrest Koresh that Waco had to be handled as it was? Give me a break.
CurtC-the contras were nothing but murderous thugs-Congress was absolutely right to cut off aid to them. They sold weapons to TERRORISTS. People who killed our Marines.
They broke the rule of law. The system of checks and balances. They went against everything our Founding Fathers set up.
Oliver North should be sitting in prison right now.
Jesus Christ on a stick!
Zebra:
[Moderator Hat ON]
You are in Great Debates, where calling someone an “incredible fucking moron” is not appropriate. Do not do this again.
[Moderator Hat OFF]
Can you plausibly suggest that it was the prior intention of the government to kill American citizens in these cases?
Admitting you have a problem is the first step towards conquering it.
Say, just hypothetically, and I don’t have any evidence for this, I just thought I’d throw it out for discussion, but what if people who post to message boards with conspiracy theories about the U.S. government engineering terrorist attacks on its own people are really agents of Osama Bin Laden engaging in cyber-terrorism? After all, the terrorists must realize that one downside (from their point of view) to this attack would be the possibility that it might just wind up bringing most Americans together, and they (the terrorists) would obviously not want that, so they’d want to do things to destroy that unity and cause Americans to fear and even hate each other.
Of course, I don’t have any evidence for this. It’s just a hypothetical suggestion. I just thought I’d bring it up for us to discuss. After all, if movies have taught us anything it’s that shadowy organizations of international criminals and terrorists are capable of doing just about anything to carry out their nefarious plans.
Hansel - can you plausibly suggest that the government did NOT intend to kill them in these cases? Did they show up at these sites with peace offerings or guns? Sheesh. Sometimes a little judicious paranoia can be a healthy thing…
For the record, I don’t believe the government did those things in New York and at the Pentagon. I’m just saying it crossed my mind.
Interesting though that you wouldn’t dare try to get on a plane carrying a little pot, but it was possible to get on with knives as long as their blades weren’t very long. Interesting security priorities, that is.
I’m not the one spouting conspiracy theories. The burden of proof is on you to argue that the commonly accepted explanations are false.
For the record, the fact that they showed up with guns is not evidence that they intended to kill everyone, since in every case you mentioned, guns are a plausible ingredient: arrest or crowd control. Flowers are not notoriously effective at subduing arrestees or breaking up protests.
You know what pisses me off about the premise behind your question? There are good arguments that the government and its enforcement arms willfully abuse their lawful authority–you mentioned some of them. Conspiracy theories do nothing but injure the real effort to hold the authorities accountable.