Is there a hard line division between relativity and quantum mechanics

Disclaimer: I am probably asking a stupid question because my knowledge of this subject is lacking. Having said that…

I’ve read from time to time about the incompatibility of General Relativity and Quantum Mechanics. Large objects, like the earth going around the sun are explained by General Relativity. Small objects, subatomic particles include electrons, for example, that obey the laws of Quantum Mechanics.

My question is, is there a bright line between the two? Is there a point where we can say this object obeys GR but this next smallest object doesn’t? Or is there some gray zone where objects of a certain size are affected by both?

Again, pardon my ignorance of the subject.

The problem is a little different, I think, than what you’re picturing. You can calculate the effects of quantum mechanics on the Earth’s orbit - and those effects are so small that they are insignificant and unmeasurable. You can calculate the effects of GR on an electron in a lightning bolt near Earth, and likewise those effects will be unmeasurably small. For almost every conceivable situation an engineer, applied physicist, or astronomer would care about, one or the other theory is just fine.

But…

The problem is sometimes, theoretical physicists want to calculate effects on objects that are both very small and very massive/energetic, like the universe as a whole when it was much smaller or a small black hole today*, and it’s not clear how to use QM and GR together to do that. The basic building blocks of the two theories don’t fit together well. Either one of the two is an approximation to some better theory - or both are approximations to some better theory.

  • For reasons too complicated to explain at the moment, when you are looking very closely at a particle that’s not particularly massive, the calculations for QM include more and more potential particles - adding up to enough mass that GR ought be in play.

At a very broad level, GR is all about the smoothness of spacetime, while QM is about how everything is quantized and discrete.

It occurs to me that I didn’t explicitly answer your question. There’s not a sharp line between where QM applies and where GR applies - they both should apply everywhere. But there are almost no cases with real-world applications where both theories apply - so the difficulty in using both together almost never matters to people, other than theoretical physicists who deliberately look for cases where both apply in order to understand the conflict and figure out how to resolve it.

(GPS uses GR to calculate how the timing of its signals should be interpreted, and QM to calculate how the antennas work - but those issues are separable)

The problem, as I’ve heard it described, comes in due to quantum indeterminacy. If the position of something like a proton is not well defined, how can you calculate the gravitational force between the two of them, since the gravitational equations require knowing the distance between the two objects?*

Momentum presents a similar problem. If we can never know the exact momentum of a quantum particle, how can know that the momentum is conserved during a quantum interaction?

The math used in GR is smooth enough, but we have to validate it with observation: if you apply quantization to GR, the scale of the quantization is ridiculously finer than the scale of GR. In other words, gravity very well could be quantized, but it is beyond our equipment to be able to observe whether it actually is the case.

I think our current equipment would suffice if only we had an object of sufficiently high mass and sufficiently small size to study. Unfortunately there’s no conveniently available black holes :stuck_out_tongue_winking_eye:.

This is fundamentally true but I think the question being posed by the o.p. is where one theory ends and the other begins, and where there are areas of overlap. And, below that explicit question, is why there are two seemingly incompatible theories which are both, in their respective domains, highly useful in predicting behavior, but break down at some scale.

I’ll point out that there is not conflict between special relativity and quantum field theory, starting with quantum electrodynamics (QED) but eventually extended to the entire Standard Model (of particle physics), albeit with some limitations. QED in particular has made some of the most accurate predictions in all of physics, and has real practical applications in condensed matter physics. (QFD and QCD have far fewer practical applications—essentially no industrial technologies—simply because the energies required to control interactions are too great for modern technology but could be a boon if we developed a way to control them other than randomly smashing highly accelerated particles together.) Admittedly, QED was resolved through the process of renormalization to eliminate infinities in the possible interactions and self-interactions, which while being taught as the standard method is regarded by some physicists as mathematical hocus-pocus; a trick that steps around the philosophical issues of what those infinities actually represent. But it works for electrodynamics, and (again, with some caveats) in quantum chromodynamics.

Renormalization does not, however, work for gravitation, both because the low energy and infinite range of its force carrier, the hypothetical graviton. This doesn’t really matter in practical terms because gravitons will never be observed in isolation due to their low energy, extremely low capture cross section with any normal matter, and because spacetime is flooded with a constant stream of them. Even if gravitation can be formulated as a quantum field theory it would reduce to general relativity under all observable conditions (and to classical Newtonian gravity in locally ‘flat’ space) in all cases except where there are discontinuities in the fundamental plenum of spacetime, such as near the singularity of a black hole.

It should be noted that for as broadly accepted as general relativity is, there is no real explanation for what spacetime actually is other than some kind of manifold upon which the effect of mass and localized energy can describe a curvature in geometric terms. GR treats the topology as smooth and (generally) continuous but we don’t know that to be the case as we can only observe it down to the highest wavelength of electromagnetic radiation that we can measure, and it could totally be discrete beyond that level, just as the “smooth” paint on your car is actually made of discrete molecules. Any physicist who is honest will admit that GR is an incomplete theory in this way, just as in quantum mechanics the fundamental nature of elemental particles is described by a self-consistent model but with no real understanding of what those particles are made of (other than ‘kinks’ or vibrating strings or some equally esoteric analogy to the everyday mechanics of our experience that is probably totally wrong).

There are some luminaries who think that gravity is fundamentally different from the other interactions and that we should not expect or even seek out a quantum theory of gravity, instead looking toward a completely different nature. While this could be true, and there are almost certainly deep connections between gravitation and time, I think it is more likely that both QFTs and general relativity are mean field approximations of some more fundamental underpinning, one that we may never be able to directly interact with or inspect. If quantum mechanics is real, then everything has to obey the rules of QM all the time, but at some resolution it just looks like classical mechanics or general relativity. However, phenomena such as ‘dark energy’ or cosmic strings (if we ever observe one) may give greater insight into the deeper nature of gravity and the possible quantization of spacetime at some extreme energy gradients.

I don’t think this really answered the question of the o.p., and probably cast even more confusion, but that isn’t because the question was stupid or the o.p., despite his begging of pardon, is ignorant; in fact, @Lucas_Jackson is asking the same question that generations of physicists have been ‘ignorantly’ asking since the emergence of quantum mechanics and general relativity, and as yet without a definitive answer.

Stranger

The clearest place where the rules break down is at the event horizon of a black hole. Black holes can be virtually any size, at least in principle.

Fundamentally there is a contradiction. The rules of GM say that information cannot escape a black hole, because you would need to exceed the speed of causality. The speed of causality is what we usually say is the speed of light, but that implies that there might be other things that can exceed light speed. But it’s more fundamental than that. Light goes at light speed because it is at the limit of what the universe allows.

On the other hand, QM obeys what is called unitarity. This is another way of saying that information can’t be created or destroyed. For a trivial example, consider the hour hand of a clock. A unitary operation might be “advance the hour hand by 4 hours”. If it’s 3, advance it to 7. This is unitary because we can always reverse the operation, by subtracting 4 hours. A non-unitary operation could be “set the hour to 6”. This is not unitary because there’s no inverse operation that gets you back to what it was. Knowing just that it’s 6 and that the rule was applied, you can’t figure out what the starting hour was.

These two things are in conflict. If black holes are one-way, then they have destroyed information. But QM says that information is not destroyed. Maybe you want to say that the black hole hasn’t actually destroyed information, but it’s just hidden behind the event horizon–not good enough, because you still need a rule that allows the universe to transition to that state, and QM doesn’t allow it. Plus, according to GM, the event horizon isn’t actually anything special. If you fell through it you wouldn’t even notice. It’s just that nothing that falls in can ever get out again.

That’s the black hole information paradox and is one of the clearest conflicts between GR and QM. It’s a problem at any size, from subatomic to the size of a galaxy. Some progress has been made on the problem but there’s no known solution yet. Actually observing a black hole at close range might help lead to an answer but we don’t actually need an observation to realize the theories have a problem. It’s a direct consequence of their formulation.

Neither general relativity nor quantum mechanics has any size threshold. GR has a threshold ratio of mass to length, where if any system gets close to that threshold, GR becomes relevant. Quantum mechanics has a threshold angular momentum, where with any angular momentum close to that threshold, quantum mechanics is relevant. There are plenty of systems that are so far from both thresholds that we can safely ignore both and use Newtonian physics to an excellent approximation. Of course, we do know of some systems that actually exist in the Universe and can be observed, that are close to one threshold or the other, and for those, one or the other theory must be used to give accurate results. We don’t know of any systems that are close to both thresholds in the actual Universe, but we can envision some, such as a sufficiently-small black hole. But lacking observations, and with the theories being in conflict with each other, we have no idea how such systems would behave.

I struggle to envision gravitons.

Any given object is constantly emitting gravitons. Presumably, the source of these gravitons is from the ones they are constantly absorbing, since the universe must be bathed in them.

When an object is hit by a graviton, it has the opposite dynamic of when it is hit by absolutely anything else: the graviton absorbs momentum, rather than imparting it. I am not quite clear about whether the angle of impact is significant.

How does the aggregation of mass cause an increase in graviton emission? Normal particles sort of percolate out of an aggregation, but how does that work with gravitons?

In terms of how we model QM, gravitons would be a strange addition to the model, behaving very different from typical particles.

The graviton is hypothetical; if gravity can be described in quantum mechanical terms, then to not contradict the observed behavior of gravity the force particle of gravity would have to:

  • be a boson
  • of spin 2
  • with no rest mass
  • and no electric charge

IOW, this is determined simply by deduction– what’s left after we toss out what a graviton couldn’t be.

None of that is an accurate description of gravitons. Gravitons mediate gravity in much the same way that photons mediate electromagnetism. A massive object just sitting there no more emits gravitons than an electron just sitting there emits photons. And a graviton would have a momentum equal to its energy divided by c, in the direction of its motion, just like a photon does.

One example of the problem, as given in an xckd “What If?” essay:

Once you have a naked singularity, physics starts breaking down in very big ways. Quantum mechanics and general relativity give absurd answers, and they’re not even the same absurd answers.

If gravity is quantum mechanical, then there must be a graviton. But no one can yet make sense of gravitons.

Another possibility is that gravity is not quantum mechanical. But then, how can quantum superposition work? If you have a test mass in a superposition of different locations, where are other particles attracted gravitationally? To the halfway point? To one or the other? All of these have problems, because if the test mass is Earth, then someone will notice that stuff falls not to the center but to some other location.

There is a solution to this, which is that gravity is random. Objects go on a random walk as they fall, and do so in a way that’s always consistent with other observations. Things might occasionally fall away from you, but that’s ok since we’ve already accepted a degree of randomness, and you can bound things such that you never really know where the other things in superposition are.

The trouble is that this breaks unitarity. So it’s a hard break in the fundamentals of QM. Too bad, so sad. Maybe it was only ever statistical in the first place.

Think for a moment of QCD. The force that binds a hadron is the inverse of inverse-square: the farther you get from the center, the stronger the force becomes. It is not necessary to perceive every component of reality in terms similar to every other componet.

For example, a graviton does not have to be a point-like particle. It can be unimaginably large, and when aggregation of matter takes place, the graviton contracts or changes its profile in collusion with other gravitons associated with adjacent material. Its superposition is diffuse in isolation, only becoming well-defined in combination with other nearby gravitons. The boundary of influence becomes more clearly defined the more gravitons there are.

I know that sounds pretty ridiculous, but at least it is a sensible shot in the dark.

To be a sensible shot in the dark, you’d need to show us some serious math.

In case OP is unfamiliar. Apologies if lites already.

It’s deeper than that. There’s a hole field of Relativistic Quantum Mechanics, which includes the relativistic incarnation of Schroedinger’s equation, the Dirac Equation

Important note, here: There are two Theories of Relativity. The first is Special Relativity, which most notably concerns things moving at speeds in the ballpark of the speed of light. SR is also where E = MC2 comes from. Special relativity is compatible with absolutely everything, including quantum mechanics. In fact, there isn’t even any non-SR version of electromagnetism: Maxwell’s Equations already had SR fully included in them, decades before Einstein (this was probably the main thing that led Einstein to his discovery). The world was ready for SR, and if Einstein hadn’t discovered it in 1905, any one of a half-dozen or so other theorists would have discovered it instead within a year or two.

Over a decade later, Einstein developed the theory of General Relativity, which deals with gravity. This was a much bigger advance, and if Einstein hadn’t done it, it might have been decades before anyone else did. General Relativity is the one that’s incompatible with quantum mechanics, and for which nobody knows how to reconcile the two.