Is there any connection whatsoever between getting a flu shot and getting the flu?

[Melbourne]

@Kimstu

, and antibody-dependent enhancement (ADE) of disease has been well described for dengue virus infections.

Conventionally, Disease is the symptoms you get. And the symptoms you get, like fever, are often the symptoms of your immune reaction to the infection.

In the case of Dengue, there are a couple of related, co-existing Dengue viruses. When you get infected, you get an immunity which protects against that type, but is reactive to all types.

So later, when you get your second Dengue infection, you get a strong immune response, and disease, which is not effective against the virus. So you are getting the fever, and you still have Dengue, and you are getting more fever, and you still have Dengue.

Influenza is also a disease which is described by it’s symptoms. If you get intestinal influenza, they probably aren’t going to call it ‘flu’. If you get ‘flu’ and die of subsequent bacterial pneumonia, you’ll probably be counted as a ‘flu’ fatality. You get the same immune response from the flu vaccine: that’s how it works. Fortunately, the immune response to the flu vaccine is small and self limiting: there is no actual infection, no actual influenza, nothing to maintain an extended and dangerous “disease”. But if you are unlucky, and the vaccine manufacture is unlucky you do get some flu from the flu vaccine.

For this reason, flu vaccine is a matter of choice for most people. It’s considered important for old people, but for the rest, it’s something you do because you don’t want the flu, or because you live or work with old or compromised people.

So it is entirely reasonable for a fit married 30yr old, no parents, no children, good health insurance, somebody to care for you if you are sick, to decide not to bother with the flu vaccine every year. The pain is yours, the benefits mostly somebody else’s.

Of course, having said that, the OP describes a situation where they got infected before vaccination, and got sick after vaccination.

Personally, I don’t eat yogurt. I got sick with a sore throat in 1975, fpr twp days ate sweet yogurt because it soothed the throat, then was sick as a dog with influenza for the next 10 days. I really didn’t like having the flu. I get vaccinated, and I avoid yogurt. You might think those two actions are not equally effective, but the emotion is real.

[Thudlow_Boink]

@Kimstu

What I don’t get is why this situation is offending and angering you to the point of making you sympathetic to antivax nutjobbery, even to a minor extent.

I think I get it. It makes emotional sense, if not logical sense. It sounds like what @hideousidiot encountered was a dogmatic refusal to even consider that there was a connection, in a way that felt uncomfortably close to attempted gaslighting or denial that he had experienced what he actually experienced.

[hideousidiot]

Thank you. What makes the most sense to me, based on the responses in this thread, is that I might have gotten the flu in the brief period between getting vaxed and getting the flu. That makes sense to me, as opposed to “ the explanation is that you’re a crazy person, given to belief in anti scientific nonsense. Grow up and fly right.”

[Lucas_Jackson]

@Tired_and_Cranky

Yes, there is a connection between getting the flu shot and getting the flu. If you don’t get a flu shot, you are much more likely to get the flu. Getting the flu a week or two after getting the shot is a coincidence. Humans are great at finding specious patterns from rare occurrences.

This.
If this (the OP) was a thing, it would be widely known by now,

[robby]

Here’s my anecdotal experience: when I was in my 20s and 30s, I was inconsistent in getting a flu shot. If it was offered I would get it, but I made no special effort to seek one out.

Then on two occasions during this time, I got a severe case of influenza. Both times put me in bed for 2-3 days of wracking pain and near-delirium. There was no way of powering through it, and I wasn’t able to read or watch TV or do anything other than try to sleep. Both instances are burned into my brain—despite happening 25 and 27 years ago, respectively.

I have never missed my annual flu shot since that second bout with serious flu 25 years ago. And I have never come down with a serious case of flu since then, either. I have gotten the flu at least twice since then (and I can tell the difference between the flu and a cold), but it has been exponentially milder.

[Kimstu]

@Melbourne

Conventionally, Disease is the symptoms you get. And the symptoms you get, like fever, are often the symptoms of your immune reaction to the infection.

Nitpick: Not disagreeing with you, just noting that the bit you quoted from my post was actually a quoted excerpt from the article I linked. I personally offered no opinion on the specifics of ADE in the case of dengue infections.

[pulykamell]

Or you may have caught the flu virus right before you got the flu. I always think of it this way – with the large amount of people getting flu shots every day, some of them will already have been infected by the flu virus and just haven’t developed symptoms yet. I would expect scores of people to develop flu even with a day or two of receiving the shot, because there’s going to be scores of people who already have the virus and aren’t presenting yet. It’s to be expected and has nothing to do with getting the vaccine. In your case, it may have been the period between getting the vaccine and showing symptoms, before the vaccine has had a chance to achieve full efficacy (and, even then, it may not prevent the flu if you caught a different strain, or simply the vaccine not being effective on you.) I don’t feel there’s anything mysterious about this, and certainly nothing to suggest a causal link.

[Kent_Clark]

@robby

Both times put me in bed for 2-3 days of wracking pain and near-delirium. There was no way of powering through it, and I wasn’t able to read or watch TV or do anything other than try to sleep. Both instances are burned into my brain—despite happening 25 and 27 years ago, respectively.

Seconded. I missed getting a flu shot 20 years ago, and caught a case of REAL influenza. I had a fever that approached the “put him in the hospital for treatment” stage and developed pneumonia. I was flat on my back for two weeks and weak and exhausted for three weeks after that.

Those aches and feverish feeling they like to call “flu-like symptoms”? Folks, that’s not REAL flu. Once you get real flu, you’ll understand why some people die from it.

[Jackmannii]

@Stranger_On_A_Train

Vaccines, even recombinant, mRNA, and fully deactivated vaccines are not completely without risk because although the vaccine cannot revert to a propagating virus there is always the potential for stimulating an excessive adverse immune system response (organ or systemic inflammation).

It’s important to know that, as a general rule, whatever adverse immune response one might develop after vaccination are nothing compared to the risk of such reactions in response to full-blown infection. And that goes beyond things like cytokine storm, which has claimed a disproportionate number of lives of younger people contracting some viral respiratory infections.

This article notes key differences between infection-derived immune reactions and those developed in response to immunization.

…certain infections may dysregulate immune homeostasis, leading to inflammatory or allergic pathology and exacerbation of pre-existing conditions. However, many vaccines generate an optimal immune response and protect against the consequences of pathogen-induced immunological aggressiveness, and from a small number of unrelated pathogens and autoimmune diseases.

[Stranger_On_A_Train]

@Jackmannii

It’s important to know that, as a general rule, whatever adverse immune response one might develop after vaccination are nothing compared to the risk of such reactions in response to full-blown infection. And that goes beyond things like cytokine storm, which has claimed a disproportionate number of lives of younger people contracting some viral respiratory infections.

That is, as you note, generally true, but rare exceptions exist. I got a flu shot in the early 'Nineties (because someone I interacted with was on immunology-suppressent drugs for organ transplantation) that caused an extreme cytokine release syndrome that was much worst than any bout of influenza I’ve ever had, and put me off of getting the annual flu immunization for over twenty years. The anticipated 1976 swine flu epidemic (which ended up being less severe than projected) is infamous for a vaccine that resulted in an increase in Guillain-Barré Syndrome of about 1 in 100,000, although epidemiologists broadly agree that even if that risk was known it would have still been prudent to immunize the population to prevent an H1N1 influenza epidemic which could have been comparable in impact to the 1918-19 ‘Spanish Flu’ pandemic.

This and other incidents are why we have (or, at least had) the CDC Advisory Committee on Immunization Practices to review data from vaccine trials and ongoing surveillance to prevent adverse effects from immunization, and this is (or at least, was) arguably one of the strongest review systems in pharmacology. Vaccines have––by far––prevented more mortality and morbidity than any adverse reactions have caused, and next to public sanitation and water treatment are the main reason that we do not have epidemic outbreaks of severe disease every few years even in dense urban environments.

Stranger

[puzzlegal]

@hideousidiot

I might have gotten the flu in the brief period between getting vaxed and getting the flu.

That’s what i was going to suggest. It’s true that

@Kimstu

a real phenomenon called antibody-dependent enhancement of infection.

Exists, but i think it’s much more likely you were exposed to flu and got sick before the immunity from the vaccine kicked in. That happened to friends of mine with covid. They happen to know that they caught it from a grand child, and they were exposed a day after they got vaccinated, well before the vaccine would have helped.

@hideousidiot

“ the explanation is that you’re a crazy person, given to belief in anti scientific nonsense. Grow up and fly right.”

That’s just a weird reaction. If you got sick after getting a flu shot, you got sick. Maybe it wasn’t flu, but it seems really unlikely that you just invented getting sick.