Generally speaking fundies are bible literalists. You’re describing a non-fundie that believes the truth of the bible is broader than details of the creation story. I believe in the truth of the bible but Genesis ain’t exactly a blueprint for the universe.
my favorite thing is where you get a person who takes the bible literally, word for word… and ask them “do you really think the world was created in 6 days?” … they’ll spew some garbage like “oh it doesnt mean 24 hours, it means a god-day” … basically, they take every word literally in the bible except the word “day” … cracks me up every time.
There are many examples where the bible contradicts itself, leading to the logical conclusion that one of the passages must be false. Theologans have come up with ‘explanations’ for many of them, but…
a few examples:
Old testament:
2 Samuel 24:1Again the anger of the LORD burned against Israel, and he incited David against them, saying, “Go and take a census of Israel and Judah.”
1 Chronicles 21:1Satan rose up against Israel and incited David to take a census of Israel.
New testament:
Matthew 27:5 So Judas threw the money into the temple and left. Then he went away and hanged himself.
Acts 1:18 With the reward he got for his wickedness, Judas bought a field; there he fell headlong, his body burst open and all his intestines spilled out.
Old vs. New:
Mark 10:19, in which Jesus says: “You know the commandments: `Do not murder, do not commit adultery, do not steal, do not give false testimony, do not defraud, honor your father and mother.’”
Do not defraud is not one of the Ten Commandments.
Many, many more can be found in this list.
Ugh. Bible stuff. Why don’t we send this one to Great Debates?
Hiram created a large cylindrical brass vessel (ritual bath?) for Solomon’s temple:
This is repeated in 2 Chronicles chapter 4.
Its diameter was ten cubits, and its circumference was thirty cubits? Either one of the measurements was wrong, or when this was written, pi was equal to 3.
One rather stretched explanation proposed was that the vessel had thick walls, and the diameter was measured from outer wall to outer wall, and the circumference was measured around the inner wall. This would make the inner diameter about 9.54 cubits, so the vessel would have to be about .46 cubits thick.
On the other hand, this verse could be take to say that the earth is round:
Don’t know if this fits the definition of “proof” but the story of the Flood makes no sense and seems pretty much umpossible under any circumstances, requiring as it does enough water to completely submerge the land masses, and for that water to be deposited in a mere 40 24-hour periods. A quick calculation suggests rainfall on the order of greater than 700 FEET per day.
And don’t get me started on the ark and all those animals…
Well, you’ve got to remember that it was said to be pouring nearly solid sheets everywhere on the earth, so 700 feet daily isn’t that impossible.
Yes, here is a pretty good solid place where the Bible was “wrong”- however, the ancient Israelite were not mathematicians, and this is not a bad estimate. So, as long as you are not really hung up on the inerrant & literal truth of the Bible, there is no big problem.
Many of the Historical fact of the Bible, after about 700 BC are very good. Asshurbanipal was indeed the King of Assyria, the Isrealites were defeated at Meggido in 608BC, Nebuchadnezzar was indeed the King of babylon, Kings Omri & Ahab have had solid archeological digs that confirmed their existance. Caesar Augustus was indeed the Roman Emperor, Herod was a “King” of Judea, etc etc. So, that really was a stupid question.
Well, your true-blue Biblical inerrantists do believe that when Genesis says “day” it means “day” (24 hours); sometimes they get a bit upset with their backsliding “day-age” brethren, who are clearly on the slippery slope towards Godless Communistic Secular Humanism.
A rain forest is defined as a forested area receiving at least 70 inches of rainfall a year. By contrast, we’re talking about sustained rainfall, for over a month, of 70 inches every twelve minutes.
At the very least, I think that would be enough to sink the boat.
I’m surprised no-ones mentioned this, and forgive me if you have and I’ve missed it but:
Sorry Ablett the answer is a definitive NO.
This is simply because using the scientific method it is a logical impossibility to prove anything to be wrong or untrue. What we can say is that there are passages of the Bible that cannot be supported with any experimental evidence. When we’re dealing with a history that suggests at any stage someone can snap their fingers and make anything happen even that doesn’t mean much.
A lot of these refernces to demonstrably wrong figures stems from the assumption that Biblical figures always meant exactly what they say. I don’t think many Bible scholars or historians accept this. The figures were written for an illiterate population to whom the number 2341 would mean no more than the number 1256378. Only relative terms meant anything: sufficient (40), the number god decreed to be sufficient (12), the perfect number (7), not quite the perfect number (6) and multiplication of these. As far as I know this is pretty much universally accepted amongst bible scholars, if not fundies. If it is true then:
“And the LORD said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh: yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years.” Simply translates to his days will equal a number of decades that God decrees to be sufficient. Similarly the flood would have occurred in a number of days sufficient to do the job.
Squidwife
“In Genesis it mentions that God separated the waters below the firmament and the waters above the firmament, and the firmament became Earth.” True, but it never defines what firmament is. It’s just raw ‘stuff’ for making the universe. I’ve always just assumed this meant that rather than being one big fog the gases separated and we have clouds and liquid water. Of course the biblical definition of sky/heaven changes too. Birds are described as flying in the heavens, so yes, there is water above the heavens/sky depending on perspective.
I’ve got to say Tim’ s are the best examples I’ve seen so far. A little hard to argue with yourself.
My personal favourite for Biblical statement that is contradicted by all scientific evidence is Genesis 37-42. Basically it states that a goat seeing lots of spotted poles when in season will give birth to spotted kids. Never quite explains why a goat seeing other spotted goats isn’t affected, but there you go. Ineffable plan and all that.
Altho in no way do I take the story of Noah to indicate a flood that drowned the entire globe, note that it also states 'all the fountains of the great deep broken up", ie the sea rose also. So, calculating how much rain would have to fall is not relevant.
Actually, Speaker, there are numerous reasons why 700 feet per day of rain is quite unlikely; furthermore, that is far from the only problem with the details of the flood story. Please refer to the following section of the talk.origins archive:
In response to Tim, these can be explained:
OT-In Judaism, Satan is nothing more than an instrument of God, not an opponent of God. So, God inciting David or God using Satan to incite David isn’t really different, one just names the middleman.
NT-Most common explanation I’ve heard is that Judas hung himself, the body fell and his guts poured out upon impact. Since there are different writers and witnesses, they are reporting the happening at different times.
OT vs. NT-There are more than 10 commandments in Judaism. There are 613 I believe. I’m sure not defrauding people is in there somewhere.
Of course, you have to take into account both Judaic and Christian beliefs in order for this to work.
Just wanted to respond that most alleged biblical contradictions are answered at the following website.
http://members.tripod.com/~vantillian/bible_difficulties.html
It contains several links to websites which discuss biblical contradictions and the explanations which prove otherwise.
Ok, an awkward explanation, but it works. Just as the differing PAssion narratives can be united using a “differing perspectives” claim.
In that case, Mayor Quimby, who bought the field? The priests or Judas? And was it before or after his death?
Kyberneticist:
I would have to answer a definite yes.
Guys, I’m somewhat confused, and I ask for an explanation.
My understanding is that the Bible, as per the time of Jesus, was written in his own language (Aramiac?), a semetic language close to Hewbrew and Arabic. This was later translated (or rather “interpreted”) by other authors who then wrote the Gospels.
As you must be aware, the translations will no doubt cause some loss in meaning, as words get replaced by other words, idioms by idioms, expressions by expressions. Translators will have to “interpret” certain phrases themselves, in order to bring them into the target language.
The original question of this thread was whether a statement/verse from the Bible was proven wrong. The question I ask is, which Bible? The original, or the one we have today? In the original language, or in English?
I could be wrong, but the original Bible might well have been very different from what we have today.
Lightkeeper- the original NT Bible, ie the Gospels, were written in Greek, altho indeed, Aramaic was the language JC & the Apostles spoke in. However, Greek was THE language of literacy in those days, and if you wanted to reach any sort of audience, one wrote in Greek (it seems like it could have been Pauls 1st language, also, altho he had a few).
There is some possibility that Matthew was written originally in Aramaic, or maybe Mark, as that is the earlier book, we now think. “Q”, ie the written down utterances of JC, was likely written in Aramaic. In any case, the translations to Greek were done very early, whilst there were still some around that remembered JC, who could correct them. The possibility of there being major translation problems is non-existant.
Same with the OT. Even the “new” dead sea scrolls have no critical inconsistancies from the “modern” jewish text. The ancient Jews were very good at copying.
In both languages, there does remain the possibility of “context” or “connotative” meaning creep. Altho the words are very likely the exact same ones, some meanings do change with time, some meanings are lost. There are some words in Psalms, for instance, which might be musical terms, which are now untranslatable.
DITWD wrote:
Stop! You’re killing me! “No critical inconsistencies?” The Hebrew scribes were good copiers indeed, but they also fancied an occassional addition when they felt that the text merited it. Check out [link=http://www.infidels.org/library/magazines/tsr/1990/4/4jerem90.html]this[/link] article about the inconsistencies between the DSS, LXX, and Masoretic versions of the book of Jeremiah.
(Please, no whining about how it’s a biased article because it’s on the II website.)
While you’re at it, what think you about Bel and the Dragon, Daniel and Susanna, the Prayer of Azariah, and the Additions to the Book of Esther?
You beat me to it! Arg!
-Ben