Is there any point to the "deist" God, or is it just a straw man?

The concept of “god” has been around for a long, long time. For most of human history, “God” was seen as an anthropomorphic, physical being who regularly interacted in the affairs of men. He spoke to men, performed miracles, punished the unbelievers, etc. This is the God of the Old and New Testaments, the God of the Koran, and the God of countless other religions which have been consigned to the dustbin of history. This is, I maintain, the God that is still worshipped, in one form or another, by the vast majority of people who claim to worship God today.

Somewhere along the line, however, somebody came up with the idea of God as an immaterial “first cause” that either cannot be known or who “chooses” not to reveal himself to us, and whose existence can therefore, by definition, neither be proven nor disproven. This is commonly referred to as the “deist” concept of God, and it is one which I first encountered in my college philosophy classes. At the time, my impression was that this concept of God was created by otherwise rational thinkers who recognized that the traditional notions of God were ludicrous, but who (because of their upbringing and culture) were unable to completely reject the notion of God altogether. Basically it was a way of denying God without being condemned as atheists.

Anyway, here on the SDMB I note that every time somebody claims to be an atheist and/or to have an argument against the existence of God, somebody else chimes in to say that God’s existence can neither be proven nor disproven. When pressed, the “believer” will often admit that they are not talking about the traditional notion of God described in the scriptures that actually form the basis of most religions, but are instead talking about the so-called “deist” God I described above. The self-professed atheists, on the other hand, are often specifically talking about the traditional notion of God, with the assumption that a God whose existence, by definition, can neither be proven nor disproven, isn’t worth arguing against in the first place.

It is my belief, therefore, that the whole “deist” God concept is nothing but a straw man, used by people to counter the claims of atheists without actually addressing the points they raise. And I call it a “straw man” not only because this isn’t the concept of “god” that the atheists are talking about in the first place, but also because it’s not a concept of God that anybody actually worships. How does one worship a God who makes no statements, performs no deeds and gives no promises? Is there any point to believing in such a being other than to save face among those who believe in a more traditional notion of God? Or is it simply a way for people who need there to be a ready explanation for everything to sleep better at night, knowing that “God” is the answer to everything that cannot currently be explained by science?

I mean, sure, as an atheist I cannot offer any proof that the “deist” God does not exist, other than a complete lack of evidence that it sdoes exist. But, so what? What, if anything, is gained by believing in such a being in the first place if it’s not the God of Christianity, Judaism, Islam, or any other known religion? Why bother if I cannot gain eternal salvation by believing in this God nor risk eternal damnation by not believing?

In short, does anybody actually worship the deist God? Or is it, in fact, just a logical construct with no real application in the world today other than to allow people to say they “believe in God” without having to acknowledge any particular religious beliefs? What value is there in believing in this concept of God in the first place?

Barry

http://www.deistnet.com

It’s meaningless. A Deity that never interacted with this universe doesn’t exist in this universe, and one that did and continues to do so in some way but doesn’t intervene on certain levels of analysis still couldn’t be detected.

FWIW, I have a friend who is a deist, and there is a radio personality here in the Los Angeles area who claims to be a deist, so I know they exist. I agree with you that the concept is seriously lacking in merit, and that those who believe in a personal God often disingenuously use deism as an argument, but nevertheless there are deists. If I’m not mistaken, I think the belief arises out of the idea that our existence is too improbable to be explained by natural means. (And yes, I realize the fallacy inherent in such an argument). Deism seems like a tidy way to explain how we got here without having to believe that a personal god is controlling day to day events.

The way I understand it, the deist god ostensibly created the universe as a wind-up toy of sorts, set it in motion, and then stepped away, never to interfere again. I don’t see as how there would be much point in worshipping such a god.

Well, I certainly don’t mean to set up a straw man myself by arguing against this concept of God. Which is to say I don’t recall anybody who claims to believe in a personal God actually using the word “deism.”

I guess I should step back a bit and ask whether those who claim that God is immaterial and doesn’t choose to reveal himself, and therefore his existence can neither be proven nor disproven, do, in fact, believe in a “personal” god. I suppose if somebody believes in a personal god who does interact with mankind, but who somehow also exists in such a way that his existence cannot be proven nor disproven, well, I guess that wouldn’t be a “deist” God after all. I’m not sure WHAT it would be, to be honest (short of a logical contradiction, that is).

Barry

If want a good arguement for Deism, read Omnipotence and Other Theological Mistakes by Charles Hartshorne. I’m not saying it will convince you, but it is an interesting read.

I never realized that deism was still a live religious denotation. I primarily associate it with circa 1800, when Enlightenment thinkers were moving into an atheist direction but couldn’t openly admit to being one, on pain of severe social and/or legal consequences. Hume probably was an atheist but refused to proclaim to be one IIRC. So one reason for being a deist was to be a covert atheist.

Another reason for being a deist, historically speaking, may be that you still get to keep a concept of god and religion, without having to compromise on the viewpoint of natural science. I take it that you have not been raised in a religious manner, godzillatemple? Religions like deism offer certain benefits, such as offering a view of a structured universe, a sense of connectedness and a metaphysical grounding of morality. Deism has the advantage that it avoids the nastier side of more common religions and doesn’t require much in the way of devotion.

If for sentimental reasons you don’t want to lose the concept of god, deism is the way to go. That’s not to say that deists are in bad faith; it’s my historical interpretation of the appearance of deism.

Hmm, besides Deism, there is Mysticism.

Karen Armstrong’s book A History of God is an interesting read.

Homebrew: I’m not actually looking for a good argument for deism, to be honest. I’m just trying to find out if anybody (especially anybody here on the SMDB) actually worships such a god, or whether it really is merely a straw man concept trotted out regularly as a counterargument against atheists (see the recent thread about whether Atheists have “faith” since they “must” affirmatively believe in the nonexistence of a being for which there is no evidence either way).

Tusculan: I actually was raised in a very religious manner and have many devoutly religious family members and friends. All of them (mostly Christians of different stripes) believe in the God of the Bible to one degree or another. Here on the SMDB is the first time I’ve heard people talking about actually believing in an immaterial God who chooses not to reveal himself to man and whose existence can neither be proved nor disproved. I associate such a concept with the deist God I read about in college philosophy classes, but, like you, I never realized that deism was still a live religious denotation.

So, once again, my question is whether this concept of an immaterial God who chooses not to reveal himself to man and whose existence can neither be proved nor disproved (a concept which I may have incorrectly labeled “deism”) is one which anybody here actually believes in, or whether it is just trotted out as a hoary straw man to confound those who claim to have an argument against God’s existence.

Barry

Barry

Deists don’t really “worship” their concept of God. That’s the flaw in your reasoning. Belief in a First Cause or Ultimate Ground of Being doesn’t require worship.

I’m probably close to Deistic in my faith, and Homebrew is right: worship doesn’t come into it. As you all pointed out, why would one worship a deity outside the loop of things? Its not about worship, but about understanding. Science and spirituality are two paths with the same purpose: understanding of Creation and, through that, understanding of that which Created. Whatever thing might be out there neither needs nor wants us (if it can be said to want anything) bowing before it. What would the point be to a being powerful enough to create an entire universe? Praying is a matter of focus and comfort, not entreaty. One could just as easily find comfort in yoga meditation or staring at a bowl of cereal in the right mindset.

Who says that a god would need to be worshipped? (Aside from religions that somehow believe an omnipotent being would need ego satisfaction) And why does something need to be gained from an intellectual concept? So in summary, sort of what Homebrew said. I personally find that a god that needs to be worshipped or a religion that is geared to benefit only the practitioners of said religion argues against the validity of the religion. It’s too anthropomorphic.

The point of Deism is to keep crazy Christians off one’s back.

Sorry–I’ve been away. But it seems to me (an atheist/agnostic) that someone could be a Deist, worship a Deist god, and not be full of BS.

Here you are, alive in an amazing world. You see order in the laws of the universe, beautiful structures arising out of it on scales from micro to macro, and yourself with an ability to appreciate it. Maybe you just cry out in praise to the deity who created such a thing. What’s wrong with that?

And why wouldn’t the deity be opposed to such praise? Not that it necessarily NEEDS it, since we would hardly be its peers, but what artist doesn’t appreciate recognition of his/her work?

Consider a Deist god not as someone who tosses a pebble into a pond, and sets up a bunch of random ripples, but rather as, say, a game designer who lays out the rules and watches things play out, or a playwright who builds the sets and writes the script but doesn’t jump onstage to control where the actors actually take the show.

Deist. No worship involved.

I find it a nice feeling to believe that there was a creator. I like God as a concept to put things like hope and gratitude and luck. Kind of like a hat rack. But God isn’t personal. You can “hope” that direction, but its a direction - not a destination.

I freely admit there is no rational basis for this belief. I’m married to an atheist. We go to a Unitarian church. Where we both participate in the appreciation of the universe - whether we direct that towards a diety or not.

Something between Agnostic and Deist here.

When one consider the immense (infinite?) number of ways in which the Universe could in theory have been created and then look at our own - I think one sees a Universe so absolutely amazingly fine tuned to foster exactly those conditions that can produce life, that it must give some thoughts on whether this all really is just blind chance. The only other theory I know of, that can explain this amazing luck that we live in a Universe so amiable to life, is the Anthropological Principle – and while that’s the best one we may ever have, it’s not really a satisfactory answer.

I agree with the “Deistism is not about worship, but about explanation” However, while I don’t and won’t worship any god in any traditional sense, I think the world is such an amazing beautiful (for lack of more awe inspiring words) place that if there is a creator I would stand in absolute awe of him. Neither do I think such a creator would want us to worship; he would not want us to bend our necks, but stand up and be proud of ourselves, of what we do and what we create – which is why, even though I find many commendable things in Christianity, the story about Babel’s tower really sucks, as does the way Moslems prostrate themselves, etc.

I haven’t ruled out that the creator if there is such a thing is intervening directly in the Universe – which perhaps goes a bit beyond the Deist thing.

I also sometimes have a strong suspicion that the universe is a simulation (don’t say the word Matrix!) Perhaps we ourselves are the creators. Or perhaps, perish the thought, the Universe is a simulation owned by the big corporation MetaSoft and it’s running on proprietary code (I want an open-source Universe damitt!).

“I have a terrible need of – dare I say the word? – religion. Then I go out at night to paint the stars…”
van Gogh

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