Is there literally something wrong with the South?

[Boyo_Jim]

If you eliminate “… imposed/given economic or natural environmental, and/or other local/legal/governmental/sociological/[(and/or)associated philosophical] constraints…” what is left to examine/compare/contrast and/or judge?

[woodstockbirdybird]

@jtgain

If wrong=conservative, then I would agree. But I think it is more of an issue of urban/rural vs. north/south.

A few states come to mind that would be redder than the reddest state if it were not for the urban areas: New York, Pennsylvania, California. Were it not for NYC, Philly, and the LA area respectively, you could count on those states being locks for the GOP.

The only difference between those states and the south is that most southern states don’t have that huge urban area to counteract the rural vote.

I know a lot of people where I live and work (San Francisco/Oakland/Berkeley) who’d be shocked at the idea that L.A. is the only reason California’s not a lock for the GOP.

[DanBlather]

@Shagnasty

You would be amazed at the number of people in Boston that think black slavery was a thing people down south did when this was once ground zero for importation and selling of them.

I’d love to see a cite on that.

[Shagnasty]

@DanBlather

@Shagnasty

You would be amazed at the number of people in Boston that think black slavery was a thing people down south did when this was once ground zero for importation and selling of them.

I’d love to see a cite on that.

A cite for what? What I said should be common knowledge. Here is one of many.

http://www.slavenorth.com/profits.htm

[Lanzy]

@Little_Nemo

@Vlad_Igor

I think it would be interesting to see those stats rendered by number of dry counties. Here in Bourbon country, 46 of 120 counties are dry, with another 19 moist (a wet city in a dry county). In Tennessee, the Jack Daniels distillery is in a county that can never become wet because of the requirements needed to make it wet. As far as alcohol consumption goes, there can be large regional differences within a state due to moral beliefs, wine/beer/distillery industry activity and life in a metropolitan area.

I wonder what the effect is of having “dry” and “wet” counties. Drunk drivers may end up driving longer distances and that could negate the effect of lower overall alcohol consumption.

I grew up in a dry TN county, there are no liquor stores but plenty of places to buy any type of booze you want, I suspect all dry counties have their sources. Dry means no LEGAL drinks, my family made a lot of profit from our county being dry.

[Merijeek]

@Spoke

@DanBlather

Traffic fatalities, worse 10:

Now that one intrigues me. I wonder what accounts for that? It’s not poor roads. The roads here are as good or better than elsewhere in the country.

Ain’t no gummint gonna tell me to wear my seatbelt.

At least that’s it in Mississippi. Add to that the how many of your two-lane highways have a drop off to a wall of pine trees or a farmer’s field and that probably doesn’t help either.

I recently had the fun of spinning out off one of those two-lanes a couple months back to the tune of about $4,000. Fortunately, I managed to do it down a slope into a farmer’s field rather than a wall of pine trees - which I would have hit a mile in either direction down that road.

-Joe

[An_Arky]

Let us not forget how those noble and intelligent folks up in Boston reacted to their finally facing their own segregation issues some 20 years after Brown v. Board of Education.

So yeah, some of y’all yankees are real good at pointing fingers, looking in the mirror, not so much.

[An_Arky]

ETA:

But I’m not defending the actions of some of my fellow southerners, and I Got The Fuck Out when I grew up.

[Merijeek]

@An_Arky

Let us not forget how those noble and intelligent folks up in Boston reacted to their finally facing their own segregation issues some 20 years after Brown v. Board of Education.

So yeah, some of y’all yankees are real good at pointing fingers, looking in the mirror, not so much.

Fought a war, did they? Mobilized armies, did they?

-Joe

[An_Arky]

No, they just stood there looking for all the world to see like the worst examples of ugly, ignorant racism on national TV, more than a decade and a half after Arkansas had their 15 minutes of fame at Central High.

[Zsofia]

@Shagnasty

@ZPG_Zealot

After WWII, Germany (at least West Germany) was made to acknowledge at least some of their crimes against humanity and later generations were taught the actions of Nazi Germany were wrong. The American South basically got a free pass once radical Reconstruction ended and to this day still glorify the slave system and treason against the United States to maintain that evil system.

There are Southern Apologists (meaning not very to the rest of the world). I am basically one myself but you have to take in a much larger picture to be able to understand why that is with nuances. Southerners didn’t kidnap slaves the slaves in Africa. Other Africans did that dirty work. They didn’t import them for the most part. That was mostly left to the Northerners to handle the deals. There was real honest to god black slavery in the Northeast as well even in Northern New England not to mention white slavery in indentured servitude. You would be amazed at the number of people in Boston that think black slavery was a thing people down south did when this was once ground zero for importation and selling of them.

The South is more integrated in black and white terms than any other area of the country. It has to be because the cultures are codependent. It would take several books to describe why but most white Southerners are very kind everyone and things hum along great most of the time. Many of us where raised partially black by nannies and other domestic help and love them very much. It is different from other areas in that you just don’t have a business meeting with a token black person and call it diversity in action. In liberal Massachusetts, minorities are the people have government plans about to keep them reasonably happy so that they don’t interfere in your exclusively white neighborhood. It doesn’t work that way in the South. Many cities and towns are majority black. They didn’t stay there because no one in their family has ever been able to scrape up enough cash for a U-Haul rental over 5 generations either. It is mostly by choice and many that do leave come back.

Who sails the ships out of Boston,
Laden with Bibles and rum?
Who drinks a toast to the Ivory Coast?
Hail Africa, the slavers have come!
New England with Bibles and rum!

When I go up to Pittsburgh where my mom’s family is, I get snitty remarks about the backwards place I come from. You know how many black people I’ve ever seen in Pittsburgh? Well, once I saw a family with a flat tire by the side of the road. None in the malls, none in the library, none in my relatives’ neighborhoods… but yet there are loads of black people in Pittsburgh. Why then did I go to the whitest public high school graduation I have ever been to there? The most segregated cities I’ve ever seen are northern ones - southern cities are very integrated. White and black Southerners spend more time together than elsewhere.

[Richard_Parker]

It takes a willful ignorance of US history to think racism against black people hasn’t historically been dramatically worse in the South, at least until the 1980s. Those arguing otherwise need to read two historical trilogies: Battle Cry of Freedom and America in the King Years. Comparing Boston, where people all but lynched fugitive slave hunters in the 1850s, with Mississippi where white people still lynched black people nearly a century later, is pure ignorance. There are still high schools named after the founder of the KKK in the South, for god’s sake.

Of course there is also racism in the North. And of course the difference was a consequence of complex historical forces, not the inherent goodness of Northerners or somesuch. But in 2010 you’d think all southerners could acknowledge their own history in this respect and stop pretending it’s all northern propaganda.

[MichaelEmouse]

@Zsofia

Bit of a broad brush there, don’t you think? (Some of us do read, you know.)

Of course you know how to read, how else are you gonna know which water fountain to use?

((Zsofia))

[Zsofia]

@MichaelEmouse

@Zsofia

Bit of a broad brush there, don’t you think? (Some of us do read, you know.)

Of course you know how to read, how else are you gonna know which water fountain to use?

((Zsofia))

The nice refrigerated one, duh.

[Spoke]

@Richard_Parker

There are still high schools named after the founder of the KKK in the South, for god’s sake.

1. Nathan Bedford Forrest (I assume that’s who you’re talking about) didn’t found the KKK.

2. He did head up the KKK in it’s first incarnation. When the Klan became violent, he disbanded it.

3. To the extent schools are named after Forrest (I assume you’re right about that; I don’t know), it would be in celebration of his military reputation, not his brief affiliation with the Klan.

4. Forrest spoke repeatedly in favor of racial reconciliation.

5. If you are getting your history from James Loewen, you should seek a more reliable source, one less prone to fabricating footnotes.

[MichaelEmouse]

@Spoke

2. He did head up the KKK in it’s first incarnation. When the Klan became violent, he disbanded it.

What was the peace-loving KKK like, before it turned bad?

Zsofia, glad you took that well. I was afraid the joke was a little too nasty.

[Dcypher]

I always find it laughable when someone tries to make generalizations over an entire region. The idea that any region is better when it comes to racism is beyond laughable. The difference I have seen is that the spotlight has been on racism in the south and it has been good for the area. There is still racism in the south and there probably always will be. Nonetheless, the horror that used to be the south has somewhat faded.

The remainder of the country, however, has yet to really deal with racism. If anyone needs reminders of racism outside the south, take a good look at the Rodney King incident, the OJ trial and the skinhead movements.

The unfortunate fact is that for everyone in this country that holds enlightened views, there are 10 boneheads.

[Spoke]

@MichaelEmouse

What was the peace-loving KKK like, before it turned bad?

A goofy fraternal organization for former Confederate soldiers.

Basically, it was like a Masonic order gone bad.

[Captain_Amazing]

@Spoke

@MichaelEmouse

What was the peace-loving KKK like, before it turned bad?

A goofy fraternal organization for former Confederate soldiers.

Basically, it was like a Masonic order gone bad.

It went bad pretty fast, though. By 1867, when Forrest became a member, the Klan was already taking violent action against blacks and Republicans, and their actions continued after Forrest “disbanded” them in 1868. So, I’d say it’s really not true that Forrest joined them before they became violent and disbanded them when they became violent. The Klan was violent from the beginning, and didn’t go away until Redemption, because after Redemption, the Klan wasn’t necessary anymore.

Regarding Forrest, I agree with Forrest Gump:

When I was born, my mama name me Forrest, cause of General Nathan Bedford Forest who fought in the Civil War. Mama always said we was kin to General Forrest’s fambly someways. And he was a great man, she say, cept’n he started up the Ku Klux Klan after the war and even my grandmama say they’s a bunch of no goods. . . So whatever else ole General Forrest done, startin up that Klan thing was not a good idea - any idiot could tell you that. Nonetheless, that’s how I got my name.

[Richard_Parker]

I don’t agree with some of those points, Spoke, but I don’t think it matters. KKK aside, the notion that you can officially commemorate the military prowess of traitors without glorifying their explicitly racist cause is silly (and I dont concede that even that misguided intention is what motivates much of the praise for confederate leaders).

Adding nuance and dispelling simplistic stereotypes are important goals, especially when discussing subjects that make people defensive. But as evident in this thread, some people use nuance to make a false equivalence – like the defenders of Chinese totalitarianism who criticize gitmo in an effort to equate the human rights records of the two countries. One must not mistake trees for the forest in the effort to add nuance and banish hyperbole.

Btw, the two trilogies I named are the gold standard in popular scholarship on their respective subjects. If you’re interested in this subject and haven’t read them, it is definitely worth your time.