Is there really a problem with homelessness in the US?

Great Debates
81

(apologies if I guessed wrong on your coding) I think you misunderstood my post. There will always be some part of the population who will be perpetually poor, or who, through no fault of their own, cannot escape hardship. I will gladly pay taxes to help out these people. At the same time, I want to be able to have access to all my money.

Some of the states seem to have minimums to hit in order to qualify for UI. If you can’t save the minimum, then you should get additional help from the government. This includes people who can’t get insured or people who have mental health issues. It’s where to draw the line that it becomes highly politicized and debatable.

82

Right, I know that for certain participating individuals (the lucky or unlucky ones, depending how you look at it), the amount received in benefits can be more than the amount paid in premiums.

But over the whole risk pool, the benefits paid out have to be less than the contributions paid in.

But you’re “paying for it” in the sense that it’s part of your total compensation package. The money they spend on your insurance benefits is money that’s not available to put directly in your paycheck. As bdgr noted, you can think of unemployment insurance the same way.

I don’t understand what you mean at all. How can you “have access to all your money” if you’re paying part of it in taxes?

Or do you just mean that you’d rather opt out of receiving any tax-funded benefits yourself, while continuing to pay taxes to help those less well-off than yourself? That’s admirable, but ISTM that you can do that already: just don’t collect any benefits that you happen to be entitled to. And I don’t see how that would give you any more “access to all your money” than you already have.

83

This is different than my plan, i.e my idea on how to replace UI. I’ll discuss further, let me quote you further, for context.

I think I see the disconnect, let me address all of this further down.

I was talking about my idea of what to do with UI. In my plan, the government takes money out of my account and sets it aside (like Social Security). However, I can only put a maximum based on a dollar amount or a number of years (whichever hits the maximum first), or perhaps, after the maximum, the contribution is lessened. If I’m employed, I cannot access this money. In the meantime, the government makes interest off this money (this money doesn’t grow). I still have to work the numbers out. It could very well be that the government needs to take even more money out (like 10%, where avg state UI (or SUI) is 4%) to make this work. Hmmm…now that I think about it more, I don’t think that there should be a maximum.

This formula should work at all incomes. My reasoning is that if the worker was surviving at $5/hr, then he shouldn’t receive more than $5/hr in benefits. However, for this person, the benefit should run out quickly, and he should quickly find a job making $5/hr again. There shouldn’t be any trouble finding another $5/hr job.

Of course, this isn’t that scalable, b/c $100k jobs aren’t as common as $5/hr jobs. The theory I hold here is that these people are less likely to be fired within 1 years time or even three years time. By the time they get to this level of income they should have a good wad of cash saved up from UI.

Here’s an example I’m throwing around my head: Person A is employed for 25 years. Let’s say that over the course of his employment, he averaged $50k/yr. At 4%, the government forces him to save $50k total. He was never fired or never needed to claim unemployment. So, the government, over the course of that time, receives the compounding interest on that account (assuming this compounding calculator is right at 5% interest) to ~$36K (and change), the $50k goes back to the worker.

It doesn’t seem like a lot, but now multiply that by 200 million workers, and you have a good chunk of change to work with. In 2004, the average salary was $36k. Assuming 4% deduction with a 5% rate of return: over 25 years that’s 180,408,000,000 (theoretical max). That’s from starting with $0. I’m sure that there’s been 200M people in this country that has never claimed unemployment and has been in continuous employment for 20 years and their average salary was $36k. Let’s call all this “seed money.” To get this seed money, don’t allow the highest 1% their money back they pay into UI. After this is built, then UI should be entirely self-funded.

I’m sure I have a lot of explaining to do about these numbers, but I have to catch my flight now, and I wrote all this kinda of in a hurry. I do admit, though, if welfare and food stamps, and medicare, etc. is funded through UI, then this whole plan is shot.

84

There are many reasons for homelessness as stated above but one of the biggest factors is buying things on credit,as a good share of people are deeply indebt because they live either in their incomes or above it.

I was born during the depression, I have supported myself since I was 13, I worked for a family as a mother’s helper for room and board to get through high school,I then worked for a few months in a then called dime store, I earned $12.00 a week, My friend and I each paid $9.00 for rent. I lived on lettuce and blue cheese. I saw an ad in the paper for a maid in an affluent suburb of Chicago. I was paid $25.00 a week with room and board, I had to pay a months salary for taxes. I then worked for a restaurant in Chicago’s Loop, I didn’t eat from Friday until Monday as I had no money for food. I washed my clothes in the bath tub and hung them up on the towel rack to dry.

When I got married both my husband and I lived under our income(we both knew what it was like to go with out). I had 7 children, I made all their clothes (before I got a sewing machine) I made them by hand. When I got a sewing machine I made their clothes or bought them at rummage sales(there was no private garage sales then,some I made out of old clothes that were given to me. The children’s teachers said my kids were the best dressed! People kept their things and mended them or passed them on.

In our first 25 years of Marriage I had spent only $125.00 on my clothes.I made my husbands work pants and flannel shirts. Until after my son’s birth( my 4th child) I had an old wringer washer that I had to keep the agitator going and used a big screw driver to keep the wringer going. I hung my clothes out doors and had to iron everthing as ther was no materials like now that do not need ironing.

My husband was in the hospital for 6 weeks while i was expecting my 7th child. I worked from 4 to midnight; my daughters were in high school and they watched the younger ones.

We moved to a small farm and raised all our food, it was a lot of work but paid off in the long run.

My husband and I have almost never hired anyone to fix things for us we do it our selves. We saved for our old age. and we still do every thing our self. My husband is over 80 and he is going to roof our barn.

The trick is to live under one’s income then when problems occur one has something to fall back on. Most of the young people think nothing of just buying something because they want it. Well if one is homeless they have no place for these things and end up with nothing. It is easier to go without and build up than to have things and lose them.

Monavis

85

When I was 5 years into my home loan I ran the numbers on a spreadsheet and was astounded that I could pay the house off if I doubled the principle for 5 years. So I did just that for the next 5 and had it paid off. I felt Like a jackass for the lost 5 years. Of course, that involves living below my income so the money was available (starting with the cost of the house).

I’m humbled to post next to monavis. I was taught by depression era parents. Neither of them went beyond HS but their education was better than my 4 year business degree. They taught me how to plan for my future and did it without my awareness of the level of education it represented.

By my parent’s standard I’ve lived a wasteful life. By society’s standards I’m frugal. It was obvious my company couldn’t lose money indefinitely. Long before my facility shut down I rearranged my finances to compensate for the loss. As luck would have it I was hit with medical bills and other financial obligations the day they shut it down. My next egg was served up for breakfast the following day. but I was ready for it. I was planning on taking a vacation with the money I saved but it was wiped out. It was not prudent to dip into my severance package. There were people I worked with who did just that. That’s where financial planning comes in.

Before I lost my job I had already restructured my expenses to fit within the payments from unemployment. My search plan for a job was focused and took into consideration the 6 months allotted me. It went from Plan A (look for a better job) to the other end of the spectrum (accept what I know I can walk into).

I’ve repeatedly given simple examples of what planning can do in advance. With the exception of medical problems it can be followed by anyone, rich or poor. Unfortunately, the children of poor parents never learn these lessons and are more likely to get sucked under. I’ll add that poverty is not a monetary problem because my standard of living as a child would be considered poverty by today’s standards. While my parents had nothing in the way of money I was surrounded by a wealth of knowledge.

86

Magiver, I notice that you never replied to black rabbits’s post (#72) This is much closer, both in substance and spirit, to the OP than your telling us how an intelligent, hard working, psychologially well adjusted person can avoid homelessness. Thoughts?

87

This is an excellent point. The next time a greasy bum sleeping in a park asks me for spare change, I’ll tell him to downgrade to basic cable and sell his tux. I’m quite certain he won’t regard me as an idiot.

88

??? Post 72 is about someone who has severe mental problems, which has nothing to do with what I was talking about. I did not offer a cure all for the topic nor is there one. My analogy to seat belts is the best I can make. Planning is something you do in advance to avoid problems in the future (and it’s free). Failure to do so will reek havoc in the event of an accident. I was taught financial planning by my parents along with all the other lessons in life. It’s not rocket science.

I have a friend in the exact situation black rabbit described. If the person in question goes off his medication then he is delusional and capable of harming someone. Somewhere in my lifetime the court system decided that the part-time insane can’t be institutionalized long enough to fix things. My heart goes out to black rabbit for his cousin is truly in need but is not mentally capable of dealing with it.

89

Sure, but the topic of the thread is homelessness.

90

If he looks at you like you’re an idiot then maybe it’s for a good reason. If you can’t figure out my response did not cover all aspects of homelessness then I don’t know what to tell you.

And before you give spare change to a bum you might consider multiplying it by 10 and giving it to a shelter. That way you’ll know that you’re not enabling a potential drug addict/alcoholic with the very tool that is killing him.

91

Sure, but the topic of the thread is homelessness.

92

There’s no such thing as “your money” that’s inherently distinguishable from “money that the government is entitled to tax on behalf of the common welfare”.

The government prints the stuff.

By participating in the market economy and utilzing the common currency as developed and maintained by the government, you’ve entered into a contract that includes, at a mimimum, acknowledging that the government plays a valid role. The government, in its wisdom (yeah, I know…), has decided that the best way for it to pay its own way is to let citizens earn within the bounds that it sets, then to scrape off some of the cream. (That’s not the only place it skims, but it happens to be the one being spoken of in this thread).

Now, you may disagree with the way in which the government is spending the money it skims from you via income tax, and you may disagree with the tax structure, but I don’t think you’ve got ground to stand on when you act as if the government intrinsically lacked any right to tax your income and spend it in this fashion in the first place.

Finally, while (as I said) you may disagree with the way in which the government is spending the money it takes from you via taxes, I will disagree with you if you intend on asserting that the competitive market economy is intrinsically fair in the absence of any ameliorative attempts to redistribute some resources back to the losers in the economic competition. It isn’t.

Even more finally (yeah, yeah, I know, I know…), I may agree with you if you disagree with redistribution as the proper solution to that problem. In fact, I’m almost guaranteed to agree with you there, even if we disagree on what should be done instead of that.

93

Guys. good capitalist theory requires a 4-5 percent unemployment rate in the best of times, so companies can hire new workers when they need them. So this guff about unemployment insurance is bullshit. “Everybody should want to keep their job” indeed. Unemployment is BUILT INTO THE FRIGGING SYSTEM, PEOPLE!

It’s only fair that those who are benefiting from the system should compensate those who are harmed by it.

94

But see, thats not everyone. The ccompany I worked for last was making money, and had just been awarded the largest contract the military had ever given. They just decided they could make more money since the job market was bad by laying off half of us and making the other half work more hours on salary…it happens all the time.

a lot of people are already living as frugally as they can. those are the ones when a layoff comes wind up out on the street.

95

I’ve acknowledged that this stuff happens. I acknowledge that its possible for the unexpected to exeed planning. That doesn’t negate the need to plan. I posted examples of frivilous spending for items people think are necessities. To this day I remember watching a news interview of a woman who got laid off and one of the things she complained about was that she couldn’t afford cable. Hello, cable is a luxury. And you can get books and movies free at the library.

I know frugal. I don’t see it around me. I know people who make $15K and I know people who are probably millionairs. I can’t tell you how many times I’ve had people who smoke 2 packs of cigarrets a day tell me they can’t afford health insurance. That is the exact cost of the insurance I have right now. I point out the irony of this to uninsured smokers but that’s as far as I can take it.

So for the umteenth time, financial planning is a valid way to reduce the number of homeless people. What is the debate here?

96

The debate here is whether there is really a serious problem with homelessness in the US.

You seem to be trying to argue, repeatedly, that the real problem, or most of the problem, is simply an excess of easily avoidable wastefulness and lack of planning.

Other people keep pointing out to you that a lot of homelessness has causes that aren’t so easily remedied. And some of us have asked you—to no avail—whether you can provide any quantitative evidence about how much homelessness is caused just by easily avoidable wastefulness and lack of planning.

At which point, you keep backpedaling to the position (which AFAICT nobody here is disagreeing with) that wastefulness and lack of planning are bad things, and contribute to homelessness to some unspecified extent.

So, Magiver, once again: How much of the homelessness problem in the US do you assert is being caused by easily avoidable wastefulness and lack of planning? (Presumably, you think it’s a significant amount, because otherwise you wouldn’t be taking up so much space in a thread about homelessness repeatedly insisting on the importance of financial planning.) And what evidence can you show us to back up your estimate?

97

Fine, IMO there’s a problem with the homeless of which some of it can be addressed.

I never asserted a specified number nor do I think I’m answerable to you to come up with one unless you think my point is not valid. When addressing a problem it’s always best to eliminate things you can do for free and planning costs nothing. If you don’t think planning is necessary or would prevent financial catastrophe then keep on typing. I’ve got employment issues to attend to.

98

I’m not sure I need much evidence to agree with a statement that homelessness stems from lack of planning. Many of the reasons for homelessness given thus far are avoidable with planning.

Now, I won’t debate how easily avoidable it might be… clearly for some people, simple precautions like insurance don’t come easily. Some people hate to think about writing a will, getting insurance, etc.

So, instead of easily avoidable, let’s list the ways homelessness can be reasonably avoided:

  • Unexpected Medical bills are avoidable with health insurance
  • Catastrophic losses are avoidable with fire insurance, home insurance, etc.
  • A plan can be put into place to deal with loss of job income… from having six months salary saved up in a money market to an action plan to interview for a new job or get training in skills for a new position.
  • Inability to support children is avoided by planning ahead and using birth control
  • Mental illness… we make an exception in this case

Other than mental illness, can you come up with a common cause of homelessness that could not have been reasonably avoided through planning? And what evidence can you show us to back up your assertions?

99

Nobody said it does, so put away that straw man. You said that “Basically, any healthy person with a 3rd grade education is capable of earning a decent living in the US” Do you now go back on that?

Nobody is arguing with you that it would reduce homelessness in some situations. But you originally indicated that it would in all or most and that simply is not the case.

100

Yes, I’m standing by that statement.