We havent agreed on anything thus far, please don’t start now. I’ll see ya when this war (no, the REAL one) is over …
It’s been great / a great debate, meeting you all!
Huah!
Hijacking the thread back toward the topic, yes, yes there are well-known and accepted standard responses for crime victims. Books for training law enforcement officers, and especially for training “sensitivity” to law enforcement officers, go into great detail. There is no A, B, C list of what is and is not proper, but there are general trends and Mr. Smart is way off the map. It’s not at all surprising that people are either creeped out by him, or searching for ways to explain his behavior.
There’s no reason to draw an equal sign between his odd attitude and anything in particular, it’s just something to make a note of.
And back on the tangent:
If by parts, you mean the doctrines and teachings and the history of the institution, yes, that is true. But, if, as I fear, by parts you mean the many many individual people who belong to that religion, you’re wrong.
j.c.: Arent you confising “standard” with “typical.”
That would be confusing, not confising, in that question to you, j.c. And, of course, it should have a question mark at the end of it.
Okay here is my disclaimer, so as not to incur anymore crap that has already abounded in this post:
- I realize that I may be repeating much of the opinions found here already, but I was delighted to find a few that agree with the ideas I have had since this whole thing broke out. I did skip a lot where the posts just seemed to go to the garbage dump, so accept my apologies for any repition.
- I am very much submerged in Utah and LDS culture. I live in an area right now where figures are 90% or more LDS (and I’m an athiest, fancy that)! They ARE decent people. Just as all people there are good and bad. For example: there are mormons who won’t associate at all with non-mo’s, and there are some open minded, we can’t paint with that broad of a brush when it comes to such a large group of people.
- I am also an ex-mormon for very strong personal reasons, that you (MONTY and crew) cannot argue with because you are not me! I left because it just didn’t fit, but I do have an extensive knowledge of “the church” which is why I feel I should give my own personal experience and two cents.
I do feel that she was in some way predisposed to being brainwashed. I DO NOT feel that this is her fault or that of her parents, or the LDS church, but they all have a part to play. The LDS church is a particularly strong one. Where in most other western religions church activity ends on sunday, mormons have activities and meetings throughout the week, so it permeates thier entire existence. With all religions you are taught to believe something because you are told it is so, and the mormons are one of the strongest examples of this. The religion itself rests on the credibility of its one founder. In such a situation, and such repitition of what you should believe, I would think it would be relatively easy to put your own values into that maleable brain.
My own experience is that I was a devout member until about 15. As long as someone was someone important in the church I believed what they said. At fifteen I began to question things and got these prerecorded run-around answers. They really didn’t want me to question, and tried to stifle that. So I can see where Elizabeth could have believed anything he said without question, especially where he was coming from a devoutly faithful perspective. Need I point out that polygamy (especially involving older men and very yount women) is very strong in the church’s past? The saddest thing is the manipulation that must have occured to convince her that she was his wife.
Another factor is her age. It is such an awkward time. Just thinking about how I was then, and all the cliques and everything that went on, I can completely see how she could be so impressionable.
I however do not think it is ours to speculate whether sexual acts were willing or no. HE RAPED HER, mind and body. How ashamed I am of some of the posts that imply that she was willing. Her whole “ran away” quote is no evidence, only another thing she was convinced had happened.
I may not be as up to date on all the news about this, I really don’t want to pander to the news media that would try to smother this poor girl, and I think she and her family probably do want some peace and quiet, despite the posed photographs.
To say that the victim was predisposed to being brainwashed because she’s a member of a religion you don’t particularly like is ignorant at best, bigoted at worst.
Isn’t there sometimes an enabling relationship between religion and brainwashing? I have this strong recollection of reading that strongly religious people are predisposed to being brainwashed. I’ll see what I can find.
I re-read saralundberg post, Monty, and I think she was relating to an experience in the only religion she’s familiar with. Religions do (some ')) “brainwash” their members, especially the youngsters.
Peace,
mangeorge
People have criticized me for allowing my children to “talk back” to me. I did, as long as they were polite. Children who are never permitted to “talk back”, to question authority, to say “no” to an adult, are the perfect prey for cultists and others who behave authoritatively. I think ES must have been raised this way.
Monty, I am neither ingnorant nor bigoted. If you actually read my post with an open mind you may have considered it valid, but your mind seems to close whenever something pertains to your precious creed. Possible brainwashing?
Monty, brainwashed?
Nah, doubt it.
Cite?
Oh, on the flipside, such a tight-knit support system as the LDS church will problably help her to adjust. . . . ironic?
Oh, goodness, can’t we let this awful thread die?
I’m not quite sure what you want to dicscuss here, Sara. I personally would prefer that a new thread be started if we’re going to have another “pros and cons of LDS culture” thread. Or a new ES thread–but I don’t know if I want to discuss her more; I’d like her to have some privacy. Is it possible to talk about ES without dragging in every aspect of being LDS? (My guess is no.)
No need for a death, genie, you can simply unsubscribe. 
WTF is ironic about a religious group having a support system to help a member of that group survive a traumatic event? Well, if you buy into the absolutely insane theory that it’s the group’s fault she had the trauma in the first place…
Monty – what are you going to do when you can’t pull the religious discrimination card?
Well, when you stop pulling the religious discrimination, you’ll find out.