Is there such a thing as a good Prenup ???

Zeke, so work on building your earthquake proof building…a healthy relationship that won’t fall down at the touch of a feather. If what you truly fear is the divorce, build a relationship that can grow, change and mature without falling apart.

From what I can see this takes some amount of trust, confidence, self knowledge and pure selfless love.

I’m not saying prenups are bad…I’m wondering about your reasons for wanting one. My hoodlum asked me if I’d want one. (I have substantially more earning power than he does.) He wanted to make me feel safe, he worries that I will feel he’s unworthy because I’m going to make more money than he is. (The poor dear) If both parties are of the opinion it would make things smoother in case, or whatever…that’s fine. But holding a death grip to an idea of a promisory note for a relationship is not the way to go. You’ll get your wine and cheap women. If it can fill your heart, more power to you.

In my opinion, prenups are usually sought for the wrong reasons. Basically, someone is insecure in the relationship and is already seeking bunker mentality. Even with my hoodlum.

Go build your building…(if you have any Christian fable knowledge) build it on rock not sand. Same principle applies here. Love is a solid building point, it takes work, and communication, respect and trust, but its as solid a truth as you are going to find. Money…is just money, and it can’t build the everlasting truths in life.

[sub]I’m being presumptous to assume you may or may not know the particular little story. I like the story, regardless of its connection to any Christian faith or the Bible and felt it was relevant. By no means does this inclusion say anything for or against any religion.[/sub]

(on preview…re A… hugs Please…may I e-mail you?)

[hijack]
Speaking of e-mails, Kathryn… :frowning:
[/hijack]

Let’s have a quick look at the difference between cohabitation and marriage.

Take a relationship of twenty years, with spouse A having owned the house before cohabiting or marrying, and spouse B sacrificing part or all of a career to raise the children. While obviously a gross generalization, this sort of situation is quite common.

In my jurisdiction (Ontario), if the couple had cohabited for all those years without marrying, then spouse B could be tossed out on the street with no notice by spouse A, and with no right to a share of the house.

However, if the couple had married, then spouse B could not be tossed out on the street, and would have a 50% share of the house.

This is the primary difference between marriage and cohabitation in my jurisdiction. Marriage ensures the protection of property rights which cohabitation fails to protect. There is movement toward correcting this, but as the law stands today, marriage provides protection of property rights which are not protected in identical circumstances where the parties cohabit without marrying. Quite simply, marriage is a contract which sets out property rights. A pre-nuptial contract simply allows the parties to define the property rights as they together see fit, rather than force the government’s property regime down on them. It is not a question of whether or not to form a contract, but rather whether the parties or the government should make the terms. Let’s be very clear about this. A domestic contract does not introduce property rights to a marriage. Property rights are already part and parcel of a marriage, regardless of whether or not there is a domestic contract. The domestic contract simply lets the spouses decide the terms rather than the government decide.
Now let’s look at how marriage affects the property rights of two equal people.

Both spouse A and spouse B go into the marriage already each owning their own houses, worth $100K each. They marry, move into spouse A’s house, and sell spouse B’s house. In my jurisdiction, if they were to separate, then spouse A would get half the marital home, totalling $50K, and spouse B would get all the cash from the sold house and half the marital home, totalling $150K. By virtue of marriage and the government’s rules which must be followed on marriage breakdown, party A has lost $50,000 and party B has gained $50,000 simply because the couple had to live somewhere. A marriage contract can prevent this by putting the parties’ rules in place rather than the government’s.

Now let’s look at whether a marriage contract is necessarily one sided. The contract is made between two parties who both have the ability to negotiate. If a mutually acceptable agreement cannot be made, then there are two defaults short of going separate ways. First, the couple can marry without a marriage contract and abide by the government’s terms concerning property. Second, the couple can cohabit without marriage and again abide by the government’s terms concerning property, albeit different terms than set out for marriage. If the government’s terms concerning marriage are acceptable to both parties, then there is no need for a pre-nuptial contract. If the government’s terms concerning cohabitation are acceptable, then neither a marriage nor a cohabitation agreement is necessary. If, however, neither of the government’s schemes are acceptable, then the only solution is a domestic contract. This has nothing to do with one of the spouses trying to beat out the other in anticipation of relationship failure. It is simply a matter of the spouses together trying to find terms that work for them. When one spouse starts misusing domestic contract negotiations to take advantage of the other, then that other’s lawyer will start jumping up and down, crying “Dump the dodo!” In this sense, the negotiation of a pre-nup or cohab can help the parties work toward an open and honest relationship which is not based on power imbalances, and identify early on before it is too late if they should commit to the relationship. This is of particular importance when it is anticipated that one spouse will sacrifice income and career opportunities so as to be the primary care giver.

Let’s for a moment look at what usually happens in a marriage breakdown. Usually one spouse ends up as the primary care giver for the kids, and that person’s standard of living takes a dive. Before becoming committed in a relationship which can easily lead to such inequity, the person has the opportunity of making a pre-nup or cohab and thus ensuring some degree of protection against serious financial hardship for that person and for the children. This has nothing to do with trying to gain an advantage. It is simply protecting one’s self and one’s children against future economic dislocation.
The bottom line? Be it marriage or cohabitation, there are unavoidable property terms, and these terms are laid down by the government unless otherwise set out in a domestic contract. As with any terms, there may be inequities, so a domestic contract provides an opportunity for both spouses identify and mitigate the inequities from the git go, rather than find themselves in later years bound by something they had not even known was there.
Most people marry for love. I suggest that being alert to the contractual nature of marriage and the property rights therein should not change this. However, being in love should not necessarily mean being blind in love.

A relationship requires a great many things to thrive, the least of which would be a domestic contract. Focusing on the failure of the marriage rather than focusing on what must be done to make it blossom would obviously be wrongheaded. But if one decides for the right reasons to marry, and thereby accepts a fixing of marital property rights, then one might as well be a party to the writing of the contract.

As you might have guessed from my posts, I spend a lot of my time dealing with ex-spouses chewing on each other’s legs, and I believe quite strongly in the value of domestic contracts in helping failed relationships move out of rabid ferret mode as quickly as possible.

That being said, I thought I’d toss in the following wee reflection just to keep things in perspective.

I was at a friend’s birthday party last week. It was her 50th. Her husband held a surprise bash for her. The dining room was filled with photos of her over the years, including many from back when they were kids together in high-school. They adored each other then. They adore each other now. It shows in their actions toward each other each and every day. The caring, the insight, the passion. If that degree of love, respect and committment isn’t something worth working for, I don’t know what is, for in their marriage they have grown together into something which far surpasses each individual.

So don’t anyone let the stats get you down. There is magic to be had.

Yeah. What Muffin said.
Also…

Orignally posted by Medea’s Child

Of course you may. That’s why I posted my email in my profile. For easier reference though, it’s zeke@freakyzeke.com

By the way,

I seem to have only one supporter here [subliminal]Thanks, Muffin[/subliminal] and I find it interesting that it’s a woman. Further, I see that she’s a lawyer. Perhaps, the type of woman I seek is… hmmmmmm… oh yes, a lawyer.

I shall have to do some investigating and see where this new angle leads me.

Of COURSE you get a prenup. You get the best lawyer in town to do it, and she gets the 2nd best lawyer in town to review it.

Then you wait 10 years.

I had a guy I very casually dated and never was close with hit me up for $5000 YESTERDAY. Goodness, gracious, my Grandma and then my bunny died last week.

What if I had liked that guy? Gawd. What a pig.

Zeke, money does strange things to people. Be assured there is a woman out there with a blackened soul who would be eager to take you to the cleaners—and she may have a great smile.

I’m pretty well off. The way I’ve solved it is plan on not getting married.

A poem:

*F.Y.I.:

Muffin’s a guy*

That “new angle” would be most interesting, indeed.

BTW, Muffin? I think you should consider changing your name. I’d suggest adding “Stud.”:stuck_out_tongue:

[d&r]

Originally posted by dwala:

It’s been said that: No matter how pretty, how well-built, or how great in bed she is, somebody, somewhere, is sick and tired of putting up with her shit.

I, for one, believe it.

Thanks for the added support, dwala, and I’m very sorry to hear about your bunny (and your Grandma?).

As for Muffin being a guy, well, that’s the story of my life, right there.

xtnjohnson, shall I register you on my list of supporters?

Sure, but I’m a lawyer so my opinion doesn’t really count! :smiley:

Absowutewy.

You know, I’ve yet to miss any of the men I could have married but didn’t. I’ve got a web site somewhere about my numerous engagements. Commitment phobic! Yay me. Two of them were real nice, too. I’m so GRATEFUL I didn’t marry any of 'em. Would of had to pay them to go away. Blech.

Being a romantic and not wanting a prenup is fine. It’s a lifestyle choice as valid as me saying never ever will that happen to me. Just a lifestyle decision—and do you want to get hooked up with somebody who doesn’t think the same way you do?

It’s a merger. Treat it accordingly.

I’m so much sunshine and cheer today I may gag. (“Bitter, much?” “Why, yes.”)

And StudMuffin struts away, another notch in his belt. :wink:

I’m sincerely flattered by the flirting, but give me some time to get up off the floor and stop laughing. I’m a straight male built like a bridge troll, as is plain to see on my homepage.

No, I won’t be changing my name any time soon. I’ve had it for forty years. StudMuffin? Moi? Nah. Just not my thing. But the situation really does crack me up.

Hang in there {{{{Zeke}}}}. You’ll come across the right person eventually, and be glad that you waited when you do.

Women would do well to note that Zeke began flirting based on the posts rather than the pics linked to my profile line. Methinks the man has substance which speaks well for him.

I don’t know what speaks well for me except that I was too naive to realize I was flirting.

:Zeke punches Muffin in the arm and then spits

I’m thinking he split rather than spit, but maybe he meant spit.

best backwoods Doc’s voice
“Now on that spitting thing, Zee, now that’s gonna hold you up a bit. Nice women just don’t marry ya’ll spitters.”

AAAAAAAAAAhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh…

I think I see the problem here. Who said anything about NICE women?!

If I were interested in nice women, I’d probably be the trusting fool…er…soul who would believe that all would work out nice in the end.

I’m looking for a loud, opinionated, fun-loving, intelligent, scary, funny, confident woman who, according to Stellablue, “can not get her hands on [my] dough.”

Am I really being unreasonable here? Is it too much to ask that a woman have good earning power? Is it outrageous that to think that after completely sharing your life with someone, be it for 2 years or 20, that if the bond breaks, I’d like to still have a decent lifestyle to show for years of hard work, saving, smart investing, and forethought???

If so, then yes, ladies, please stay away from the big bad Zeke. He’s unreasonable. He wants to work hard for something and then keep it. Can you believe this guy?

Seriously though, I think I’ve gotten the answers I sought:

1.) For most people, a prenup is a dealbreaker.

2.) For those of us who accept a prenup, we may be blackhearted and fear commitment.

3.) Just because someone’s name is Muffin, they don’t have to be female. Actually, I like this idea. Especially with Muffin being a lawyer, maybe I’ll get a pet pit-bull and name him Muffin. Hehe

4.) Don’t spit.

Thanks gang. It’s been enlightening. Sad, but enlightening.

:: Disclaimer: This will be a rambling and probably incoherent post. Deal with it.::

My husband and I have been married for three years, and were dating/living together for three years prior to that.
Before we were together, he was married. In fact, I first met him two weeks before he was seperated, though he told me he WAS seperated at the time. I hit on HIM and later chastised him for not calling me. We went on our first date four days after he seperated from his first wife.

:: Disclaimer: He came clean after our second date about the lie and I told him to go to hell. (I was truly seperated and going thru a bad divorce at the time and was insulted that a man I hardly knew was lying to me already.) We ran into each other a few months later and resumed our relationship.::

Now, despite the fact that Mr. Duhnym was $80K in debt (he travelled for work, I wrote the checks, he signed them…I figured it out), hadn’t filed a tax return for FOUR years (deferred), took on all their joint credit card debt and made less than six figures, he STILL had to pay his ex-wife alimony for three years. In fact, he paid her double the amount he was supposed to pay…because he thought “it’s the right thing to do.”

She STILL saw fit to ignore the creditor that called on his leased car (automatically withdrawn from his bank account, which he stopped depositing in [never closed :rolleyes: ] when he moved and forgot to switch over…he’s a bad detail guy, part of the reason I took over the bills). You see, the phone number on the account was HER number, so she was getting the phone calls. The car was reposessed. How do you think they found it 300 miles away?

When you pay alimony, typically it will end if the former wife gets remarried. He had to pay alimony for three years…she remarried THREE DAYS after the last payment.

During the time that we were living together, he was made a partner (read: equity) in the largest professional services firm in the world, paid off his debt and taxes, started a stock portfolio and bought a home in the second most expensive housing market in the US. I moved twice with him before we were married.

We became engaged…for a year, no date in sight. I suggested that maybe he was scared by his former experience and a prenup was in order. He jumped at the idea and we were married ten days later. Now we have a kid (2 years old) and life is outstanding!

Wanna know the prenup? It’s a doozy.

[ul]
[li]Absolutely nothing for 10 years (excluding suppport for any children).[/li][li]Two additional, elective 2 year periods can be added at anyone’s whim. (This was my idea. I don’t want to be going thru a “down” time in our relationship and have him “meet deadline” rather than try to work it out.)[/li][/ul]

That’s it, I signed it. Not only that, but I didn’t even get my own lawyer.

Do I worry?

Not in the least.

My husband is an honorable man, I know that, and I married him because I love him. He wouldn’t be an asshole if we got divorced because he honestly believes in doing the right thing. If signing some piece of paper made him comfortable in my love for him, made him comfortable that I wasn’t “after him for his money”, I was glad to sign. Simple as that.

I should probably add that I’ve graduated from a stay at home, go to school girlfriend, to a stay at home wife, to a stay at home mom.

I’m not exactly out there earning a living, though my husband has YET to take out the garbage in our six years together. :rolleyes:

Oh and Muffin, you’re an outstanding photographer!

Two friends of mine got married about a year ago and had a prenup, and for them, it’s not a bad idea.

She is from a very wealthy family, has a chunk of “family money” in her name, and many of their household items - art, etc., are family things or things that the brought to the marriage from before meeting her hubby. If they split up, she would want these things to remain with her/her family and not be split 50/50 in a divorce.

Two more of my friends got married recently. They are just out of grad school, starting with NOTHING, but they made a basic prenup anyway with things like:

  • In case of a divorce, they would split assets 50/50 and not seek support from one another
  • Each would contribute the max possible to his or her own retirement savings, so that if they split no one would be left in the cold
  • Both have a lot of student loan debt, and I think they had something about that in there.
  • Other stuff about how they’d handle money WHILE they were married.

Basically they approached it from the perspective of “We ain’t gonna get divorced. But if the worst DID happen, I would want you to be taken care of. So let’s make sure we are taking care of ourselves during the marriage.”

Zeke, your paranoia doesn’t speak well for your readiness to get married, and yes, maybe you should look for someone else who is financially secure and won’t be “after” your money.

I guess what I’m saying is that a prenup is not a bad idea if a couple is bringing significant assets to the marriage. Or if they want to make sure some things are hashed out from the start.

Originally posted by magdalene:

I disagree. I think I’m plenty ready to get married. I’m just not willing to surrender 1/2 (or more) of my net worth for short-term companionship.
Also, from Sue Duhnym,

I don’t really understand what this is saying. Would you be willing to provide more details???