I’m a newbie here, but I’ve been lurking for a little while, and I see that this is group of people with vastly varied opinions which enjoys a spirited debate. So here goes…
I’m a 30 year old male, college educated, single, with a six figure income, modest stock portfolio and 401K plan. I am securely employed and the future looks bright all around. Also, I’m paranoid, and I’ve learned to live with it.
Having lived through multiple divorces as a child and seeing first hand how financially devastating they can be when things turn ugly - not that they have to - I’d like to keep this in mind and have some level of protection in place to avoid this myself. I know, I know, life isn’t fair and sometimes the bad guys (although in a divorce there often aren’t any good guys) win.
So here’s my question: In seeking a wife of similar socio-economic position, is a prenup a complete dealbreaker?
Can a reasonable and equitable prenup be written? If so, what provisions would it include?
I’m asking for all the ‘humble opinions’ I can get, male and female, so PLEASE, chime in and be honest.
Zeke
(for the record: Yes. This is my very first post.)
Iw as gonna reply to this post, but instead I made a new thread (doh!)so, here is the link to my new one. I emailed the admin to ask him to fix this, so maybe he will
On one hand, my slobbery, darling, romantic soul shrivels at the idea of a marriage as a contract.
My cynical side says you have to cover your butt somehow.
As for “reasonable and equitable”…like all things in any relationship, takes both sides agreement and differes from person to person.
Personally, I’ll probably end up without a prenup. Its only money. Its a comforting thing, but hardly worth fuss. If you could contractualise to protect what’s actually important, then I might consider it.
(The party of the first part declares it will rub the party of the second part’s shoulders affectionately at least once a week as a sign of ongoing endearment. The party of the second part promises to cook the party of the first part’s favorite food at least once a month. … ) Nah. Still doesn’t cut it. Who wants mandated love anyway? Who wants it as a contract rather than an expression? Sigh…my sweetness and light side wins.
Excellent point. I couldn’t agree more. I certainly am not condoning the ‘marriage by contract’ faction.
However…
when
a.) you have to have a license to get married
b.) that license has to be signed by someone granted authority by the state to confirm it, and
c.) it requires court intervention to break the resulting union
it becomes difficult to imagine that marriage can be separated from its’ legal contract – all morals, religions, and good intentions aside.
This is why the question came up in the first place. BTW, did I mention I’m paranoid. Oh, and a cynic. Yeah. Cynic.
He. I know about all of the legal stuff (my mom and I discuss my flighty idealism on occasion) and yet, all of that does not seem to me to be what marriage is about. The ceremony, the papers, the signatures, all of that is an announcement to the world of what has already happened.
Marriage is about love. And that happens or doesn’t above and beyond any paper made, or words spoken, or clothes worn. Love just is. I’ll do the legal trappings, but they do not define anything in a relationship.
Marriage has to be seperatable. At least for me. That it is or isn’t depending on printed, or even spoken, words is so against how I must live. YMMV, but I’ll stick to my ideals.
Again, I understand the cynic/paranoid bit. My view on that is that pre nups can only control the money. They can never protect you from the emotional pain, and thinking one can is lying. Relationships hold risk inherently, and no words, printed, spoken, or signed by a lawyer, will ever change that.
grins Does it sound that way? Wasn’t planning on it. As much as I adore tromping through cynic’s lives (“Look at all the light and love in the world! See! See! And over there too!”) I’m a bit busy with a previously found hoodlum (“Hey, sweetness and light, yea the world’s great, have you tried it wild?”)
Just blathering my opinions as usual. Off to go sniff flowers and hope my hoodlum hasn’t gotten himself killed.
You asked for thoughts, those be mine. (I got lots of thoughts…somewhere in this fluffy wasteland that is my mind…wait…maybe not…)
Certainly emotional pain isn’t going to be lessened by a pre-nup. Divorce is generally going to be a slice of hell itself on that side.
However–what a pre-nup can accomplish is streamlining the legal side of it. It can make it run faster, and quicker. And speaking as someone who went through a (thoroughly pointlessly–no property worth noting, no kids) dragged-out divorce proceeding, involving 14 months from start to final signatures,the majority of that absolute dead-time of zero legal motion…getting it actually done faster would have been nicer. Cutting off a limb without any known anaesthetic is going to hurt like nothing else regardless–but when it’s gonna come off anyway, it’s better to lop it off quick rather than slowly slowly sawing at it. I don’t even want to think about what a dragged-out proceeding that did involve plenty of legal motion would be like. Crikey.
Anyway, the next time around, I’m going to have a pre-nup for precisely that reason. And if my fiancee at the time couldn’t accept those reasons, well–that’s a pretty good indication that tying the knot without one would be Bad Idea #2.
You have an education that did nothing to make you wise and money that you think will make you happy and want to keep forever. You want a marriage to be a business that is set up in your favor. You want to make sure that when you rid yourself of your “love” that she can not get her hands on your dough.
You make a girl swoon!!!
May I never stop being amazed at what people worry about.
I would not marry without a pre-nup. I would not live with a person without a cohab. I would not sign off on a pre-nup or cohab unless both parties had independent legal advice from lawyers experienced in the field.
Is it romantic? Of course not. No family financial planning is, and no family financial planning is adequate without considering a wide range of possibilities. A will is not romantic. A trust is not romantic. A holding company is not romantic. Insurance is not romantic. Neither is a domestic contract. Yet all these can play significant roles in responsible family financial planning. The fact is that a great many marriages fail despite the best of intentions, so reasonable family financial planning which addresses this possibility should not be shunned. I suggest that closing one’s eyes to the possibility of marriage or cohabitation failure does nothing to prevent such failure, and addressing the possibility does not precipitate such failure.
Can a reasonable and fair domestic contract be drafted? Sure. Wanna see how? Pay me and I’ll show you. Seriously, a domestic contract can save a great deal of money spent on litigation, particularly if it is made before the separation. A pre-nup or cohab can protect the monied person from excessive claims, and protect the less monied person from being economically out-litigated. It can set bounds which both parties can agree that they will remain within despite whatever happens. But remember that positions change over time, so domestic contracts should be revisited every few years or come every major life change or come every major statute amendment or case law development.
When couples split, quite often one or the other party goes a little bit crazy. It’s a terrible time, and thinking straight may be difficult or even hardly possible. A pre-nup or cohab can help introduce a bit of stability into the situation, at least buying some time and narrowing some issues while giving the parties a chance to start coming back down to earth, and at most allowing both parties to walk away without causing further damage. Sadly, separation often turns around issues of power and control. A well written pre-nup or cohab can help equalize power imbalances and therefore often reduce control imbalances.
Finally, a pre-nup or cohab usually can effectively address only monetary issues. Even a well drafted pre-nup or cohab can not solve the really tough issue of disputed custody, for the best interests of the child cannot be predicted years in advance. What a good pre-nup or cohab can do is help prevent other monetary issues from complicating the custody matter, and limit the possibility of custody or access being bartered off against money.
Ahhh, but wisdom is wasted on the wise. And I truly have never been happier than I when I was poor. That said, I’ve been there and done that. Now, I’d like to try to be happy AND have money. We’ll just have to wait and see…
No, I really don’t WANT my marriage to be a business, but it’s so hard these days to truly see what’s inside someone’s brain - what they may be working years to to set you up for. (Bad attitude, I know) I’m just interested in a little protection in case I find I’ve listened to my heart without balancing out with my head.
And what’s so bad about not wanting her to “get her hands on” my dough? That’s why I’m “seeking a wife of similar socio-economic position” - so that she’ll have her own means if it comes down to it, and she won’t need to come leeching after mine.
Am I correct in assuming that your answer,Stellablue, is ‘No. There is no such thing as a good prenup.’ ???
PS. In my defense, Blame the parents for emotional scars moment:, what I’m most afraid of the actual divorce itself. I saw way too many of those for my mom and my dad and dad and dad and dad (yes, 4) to believe I’d make it through even one with my sanity, heart, and belief in humanity still intact.
Yes, Zeke that is my answer. I see your education did at least teach you to read.
I am sory that your Mother has had so many husbands. She must be very unhappy too.
You need to work on yourself. Do not worry about somebody else taking advantage of you and your own protection. At least this being formost in your mind will never bring you happiness. If are sad and scared and worried about the money and your wife and divorce before you marry my heart goes out to you. Do you have someone in mind? Are you in love and worry about the woman in your life?
Seriously, if what you fear is the divorce, how is clinging madly to money and eyeing all comers suspiciously going to save you from hurt?
Hmmm…there are so many, many sides to this…all further off topic and may or may not be public discussion. All my contact info is in my profile, and I’m on ICQ at the moment…I’d love to dissect this further.
You’re asking the wrong question. It’s like asking after playing with sharp knives, what is the best brand of bandages?
From experience, what I’ve found is the best way is to avoid the prenupt altogether.
Marry someone with more money than you.
Marry someone with the same economic status as you.
Marry someone who is decent and for whom money isn’t the ultimate object.
If all else fails get a good lawyer to draw up a good prenupt and have her get a lawyer to make sure she understands it. But that is such an issue you’re looking at the wrong woman.
Because I’ll need the money to buy the alochol and loose women I’ll undoubtedly use to chase away / mask my pain.
Seriously, though, I think it would be irresponsible of me to work so hard to try to prepare a decent standard of living and later, retirement, to just leave this kind of up in the air - or worse, to litigation - if the worst does occur. I mean, noone wants earthquakes, but we build earthquake resistant buildings, right? That’s all I’m after.
Really Zeke, you will attract someone with similar qualities to yourself. This is most often the way of human pairings.
So look in the mirror. More, look into our own mind!
What do you find there? Greed, insecurity, desire for social status, pride, a hurt little child?
Or love and compassion and understanding?
Seriously, a domestic contract can save a great deal of money spent on litigation, particularly if it is made before the separation. A pre-nup or cohab can protect the monied person from excessive claims, and protect the less monied person from being economically out-litigated. It can set bounds which both parties can agree that they will remain within despite whatever happens. But remember that positions change over time, so domestic contracts should be revisited every few years or come every major life change or come every major statute amendment or case law development.