Just a scenario I was thinking about and wondering what your opinions on it are.
Say you are the wealthier person in the relationship and not just by a little but significantly wealthier (millions worth vs 30k/yr kind of difference).
As the wealthier person, you feel like you have a lot more at risk (or to lose) “IF” the marriage doesn’t go well and ends in a divorce. The partner could end up taking half of your wealth. So you propose a prenup to them as a must condition in order to get married. If the partner doesn’t accept the prenup offer, then what would you do?
You really love this person with all your heart and life so would you still marry them without the prenup and take the risk or would you stand fast and tell them unless they agree to a prenup, no marriage will happen. Throw in the fact the partner then questions your love for them that maybe you don’t trust them or love them completely. Let’s also say for we know for a fact this partner isn’t a gold digger and loving you just for your money. They whole heartedly love you but find it a sign of lack of faith and love in return that you are asking them to sign a prenup. What do you think? What would you do?
I’ve learned a few lessons from life, and one thing is that feelings and professions of whole-hearted love and devotion don’t necessarily last on both sides, and one can get quite unexpectedly surprised by that.
Personally I have nothing against a prenup. But note, the partner in case of divorce might be entitled to half the assets that were accumulated AFTER the marriage.
I’d ask for a generous prenup, that if the marriage went well for say 10 years, the prenup has run it’s course and all reverts as if there had been no prenup.
In my mind, and in my heart, a prenuptual agreement is a plan for divorce before getting married, and there is just something wrong with that. Maybe you shouldn’t be getting married if you are already planning for the divorce.
I have been divorced twice, so far, and I have been very surprised both times. But something about a prenup just leaves a bad taste. If the income disparities are so great that you are considering your risk then don’t get married. Because you should be jumping in with both feet to what is ideally a lifetime relationship.
Anything else is just business. Tell Michael I always liked him.
Wanting to protect against a very common occurrence isn’t a lack of love, it’s basic common sense. Nothing says that the pre-nuptial agreement can’t be fair, or even overly generous. But having a realistic conversation when things are going great is a good way to protect against all out war if things end up going poorly. Thinking that a pre-nuptial agreement makes divorce more likely is like thinking that drafting a will makes it more likely that you will die soon. If the person you love can’t understand why you would like to protect yourself, he/she is either very naïve or likes the idea of potentially having a windfall if things go south.
That’s what I was thinking also. There is something a little off putting about even thinking or considering a prenup if you are both 100% truly and wholeheartedly all in. But that is probably the idealistic side of me a bit of innocence and naivete (until you have a wake up call to reality and realize anyone could deceive you, hurt you, break your heart/trust etc). So I suppose for the first-timers, the more innocent and pure at heart, a prenup seems to be a non issue. But for the ones who have been through it all and faced the harsh realities that even love is sometimes not enough, I can see why they’d definitely plan a prenup the next time it happens.
Sometimes it’s not necessarily the choice of the wealthy individual that wants to get married. I have a former colleague that is the son of a multibillionaire, like top 10 richest in the world type money. The woman he married was from a typical upper middle class family. She was a nurse. The family’s attorney’s wouldn’t permit him to get married without a pre-nup, not because his own individual personal wealth at the time but what he would eventually inherit.
I’m sure that he and his bride could have gone to Vegas and gotten married anyway, but it would have likely impacted how the ultimate family estate was structured and his potential inheritance.
His wife executed the prenup…7 years later and 3 children later, they divorced because she cheated on her husband.
I like your response too. I do agree. I suppose there is a lot of flexibility and creativity in how prenups can be written up. I can definitely see a very fair or even generous one being drafted that shouldn’t be a problem for either party.
It is also an interesting point you bring up about thinking that a prenup makes divorce more likely (or easier to consider as an option or way out) is like thinking drafting a will makes it more likely you will die soon. Hmm, I wonder if there is anything to it though.
I tend to believe your statement is more true than not. However, there does seem to be some argument for the former. Drafting a will maybe does help or allow for one to pass away or face their end with more ease, peace, and almost a resignation. For example, when someone is near death and holding on with whatever strength and inner will they have left because they want to see their loved one who is traveling from across the globe, they hang on. Then after they see their loved one one last time, they just slip away shortly after. Was it coincidence that happened or is there actually some proof that people can live longer and hang on longer when there is something they need or want to do so badly. After it is resolved, they seem to let go much easier.
Another example is retirement. I don’t know the exact studies but I’ve heard that “studies have shown” people who retire tend to pass away sooner than those that keep on working. The idea that in retirement you have nothing much left to live for or not a lot of motivation to do anything in life, you can let go more easily and slip away, whereas someone who has a constant goal, drive, objective, fight stronger to live each day so that they can achieve their desired goals.
In a sense, I suppose making a prenup can create a sort of safety net to fall on. So should anything go wrong and you don’t want to fight to save it, you always know in the back of your mind that the fall won’t kill you because there is a safety we set up and I can fall on it if I need to. In that sense, I think that’s what some lovers feel hurt about. If you aren’t willing to risk 100% of everything in us, then you aren’t really invested fully. It’s also like keeping a spare girlfriend in the back pocket as insurance incase my marriage doesn’t work out, it won’t be so devastating to end it cuz I can go to my back up plan girlfriend waiting on call. In this case also, the partner would say, if you are 100% invested in us, you should never need to have a spare/back up plan waiting in the wings. That would be a cloud hanging over the marriage forever.
But I still think your statement is more accurate.
When I married my first wife, we were equally poor, so no prenup was needed. However, when I married my second wife 20 years later, she was (and still is) ten years younger than me, and there was a significant disparity in our net worth. Plus, I was making much more than she was at the time.
Still bitter from my divorce, I felt the need to protect myself, and my finance understood that. I drew up a prenup that protected nearly all of my pre-marriage assets but had a 15-year sunset clause. We’ve been married 20 years now and still going strong.
The prenup gave me peace of mind that if I made a wrong decision or if things went bad for some reason, I wouldn’t lose half of everything I brought into the marriage. Luckily, it didn’t matter… but there’s no way I could have known that at the time.
To answer the OP, if my fiance didn’t agree to the prenup, I wouldn’t have married her. Simple as that.
One consideration for me would how much I could ‘afford to lose’.
Well I can presumably afford to lose half my millions, so would skip the pre-nup idea.
Now instead suppose I have saved up for a deposit and have just taken out a mortgage that I can afford to repay out of my income over the next 20 years.
My fiance is penniless.
Sadly now a divorce will mean I have to sell the house and go into a lot of debt.
Here I’d discuss a pre-nup with my proposed partner.
I believe, that’s the norm, isn’t it? Seems to me it’s only fair that the wealthier partner ask for a prenup for what wealth there is PRIOR to the marriage but wealth after the marriage is fair game, IMHO. However, if the answer is “no” from the prospective spouse then you know there’s a HUGE risk and the red flags should be up.
The law governing division of assets on break-up varies with the jurisdiction. My understanding (and not meant as legal advice!) is that there’s at least three different models: community property, separation of assets, and after-acquired assets. In community property, the property is held jointly and divided evenly on break-up. In separation of assets, each party keeps their own assets, from before and after marriage. In after-acquired regimes, each party keeps their own property from before the marriage, but all property acquired after the marriage is joint.
Anyone considering a pre-nup, or the property implications of getting married, or looking at a divorce, should talk to a family lawyer in their own jurisdiction. Do not rely on comments from some random guy on the internet!
Pre-nups make a lot more sense to me for second weddings, especially if there are children from the first. For example, if I died, there would be a pretty bug life insurance payout. My husband is the beneficiary, but if he were to remarry before our son was grown, I woupd want him to make sure that money was protected for our kid, especially his college education. In my mind, it wouldn’t really be his money to being into the marriage in the same way that say, the house is. We’ve paod for life insurance specifically to make sure our kid is protected.
Likewise, in all honesty, I don’t expect my parents to leave me anything, and if they burn thorugh all they have before they die, great. But if one died, the other remarried, and when the dust cleared someone outside the family got a bunch of money, that would rankle.
In the OP’s case a prenup is definitely warranted and if the fiancée doesn’t sign it then don’t marry her. The differences in wealth are orders of magnitude apart and it’s challenging enough to take a person at their word but the wealth difference may be clouding her ability to think straight, even if she may insist that it’s not.