Lynn, I realize this is a poll, but as it’s about the Lakers, and things tend to get heated when discussing the evil that is them, I’m putting it here.
The Lakers have, in one fell swoop, completely handed their team into the hands of a puffed-up, spoiled rotten Michael wannabe.
He single handedly gotten rid of one of the best coaches who ever coached the game, and the most dominant center currently playing. These moves alone are questionable, and one wonders if Jerry Buss isn’t ready for some Alzheimer’s treatments.
Let’s take it one step further. What happens if Kobe looks around, sees himself king of all he surveys, and still decides to leave the Lakers? I would send out Christmas presents in July, I tell ya whut. It is no secret I hate the Lakers with a passion. For one man to single handedly destroy what was shaping up to be yet another Laker dynasty in basketball just sends me into a paroxysm of giggles.
So I put it to you, fellow Dopers. Is this not a disaster in the making? Has Jerry Buss slipped his clutch for real? Will Kobe stay, or will he go? Always assuming, of course, that he beats the rape rap and not end up in prison.
Buss is spending too much time playing poker and not enough time watching his team self-destruct. This move is going to go down in history…right next to selling Babe Ruth. :smack:
But they are my Lakers, and I’ll watch them anyway…cuz they will still be better than any of the other teams out there.
Like the Kings are ever going to win anything…
Kobe and Shaq were never ever going to play together. The Lakers had to choose one or the other. There was no third way unless you count getting rid of both of them.
I love Shaq. I like him better than Kobe. At the end, his career numbers will be better than Kobe’s and he will rank higher on the list of basketball greats. That said, the choice had to be made between 2004 Shaq or 2004 Kobe and you need to choose Kobe in that situation. It’s a no brainer.
Shaq is in the decline of his career. Still dominant but not as dominant and very injury prone. Kobe has not yet reached his peak. If you keep Kobe you have to get rid of Jackson and Shaq. Kobe is a free agent and Shaq could be traded. If you keep Shaq, you lose Kobe and get zero compensation. If you trade Shaq, you get a handfull of great young players.
Think for a second, Maureen, what would you really do if you were Buss?
With Rudy as coach and Shaq in Miami, traded for young talent to support Kobe, and the Lakers able to pay Kobe more money under the arcane salary rules and his great relationship with Buss, you can count on Kobe staying a Laker. You can also count on Kobe beating that rape trial. Finally, you can count on the Lakers dominating the Kings for the next decade or so.
Looks like Miami is going to be shipping Brian Grant (a good veteran power forward), Lamar Odom (a good young big guy) and Caron Butler (a good young forward), along with a draft pick, for Shaq. A frontcourt featuring those guys and a backcourt of Kobe and Gary Payton, who one might think won’t sulk his way through the season if he doesn’t have to run the triangle offense … not a bad team, not a championship team.
I suppose I would think “So far, it’s been shown that we can win without Kobe (78%), but our winning percentage goes down significantly without Shaq (52%). And while Kobe is a talented player with a lot of potential, he comes with a lot of baggage, too.”
I think the last thing the Lakers need is yet another 2 power forwards, especially with Derek Fisher still questionable for next season and GP back to his trash talking no show ways. As for young talent; they have plenty. But by showing that coaches are not as important as one player’s opinion (ALWAYS a mistake, IMO), then what kind of authority is Rudy T really going to have?
I think Buss has made a really unsound move, and unless Tomjanovich can make a silk purse out of a sow’s ear, the Lakers are looking at one decent season before they self destruct. Not that I won’t enjoy it. You don’t have to look any further than what happened to the Knicks after Van Gundy was unceremoniously dropped to see what’s coming down the pike for the Lakers. A good coach can make all the difference. The Lakers had all the components they had last year before Phil Jackson came along; if the players are all they need, why couldn’t they do it then?
When did I or anyone else say that players are all they need?
Right now, in the 2004 offseason, they have a choice of Kobe, Shaq or neither. If the choice is Kobe, they lose Jackson. Anyone would rather have both assuming that the two of them could manage to get along. Just about anyone would prefer Shaq’s attitude.
I would choose 2004 Kobe over 2004 Shaq. That is all I said. That doesn’t come even close to saying that they’ll be successful and I certainly have doubts that they will.
Assuming this trade goes through and they re-sign Kobe, the Lakers are in trouble. Think about their team.
At the point, they would have Gary Payton and maybe Derek Fisher.
Their 2 guards would be Kobe and Kareem Rush.
Small Forward you have Caron Butler, Devean George, and the decomposing remains of Rick Fox.
Power Forward would give you Lamar Odom and Brian Grant.
Center? Nothing.
You might think you could put Brian Grant in there since he played center in the East, but that doesn’t work in the bigger and more talented West. To fill the hole at center, the Lakers would probably need to work out a sign and trade for someone like Erick Dampier. So, they would probably lose something like a draft pick, a small forward, and Kareem Rush.
This is not a team that will be deep, and it is not a team with any type of inside presence to distract teams from focusing on Kobe. With no dominant center, Kobe would be most helped by consistent spot up shooters that could play off of his drives. It appears that he has none of those.
Get Payton out of the picture, because if Shaq leaves, Payton wants a buyout. (go read espn.com)
As far as the Lakers, once Malone and Shaq are gone, I have no reason to like them. In fact I only rode the team this year because I wanted Karl to get a ring. I can’t stand Kobe, never could, he’s a whiney little bitch who will never be half the man Jordan was. My new hobby is watching the Lakers go down the drain. I don’t know what type of crack Buss is smoking, but giving Kobe the keys is a bad, bad move. Too bad they couldn’t have retained the team and launched Kobe. I wished Shaq went to Dallas and got a ring though.
I think it just goes beyond bizarre that teams are lining up to try and get time with Kobe. He’s getting the GMs to travel cross country to visit him. Making outrageous requests that are being considered. He’s getting the Lakers to dump Shaq, who has been nothing but an outstanding performer in his career. He’s dictating who will and won’t be coach for LA. All this while he’s on trial for RAPE, with ( I suppose) a real chance that he will be in jail rather than on the court.
And, furthermore, Kobe has already demonstrated that he’ll hurt the team he’s playing for (e.g., the game last season in which he all but refused to take a shot) just to make a personal point.
Kobe 2004 might be more talented than Shaq 2004, but with his attitude, the rape trial hanging over his head, and the point Mullinator made about Kobe needing a good center on the team to remain effective, I can see why Shaq would be the more attractive trade target.
Keeping Shaq vs. keeping Kobe isn’t even worth two seconds of deliberation. Letting Kobe walk and keeping Shaq wouldn’t make sense in basketball terms, it wouldn’t make sense in financial terms, and it would make even less sense in PR terms. Kobe’s six years younger and Shaq is breaking down, Kobe comes cheaper, and he’s probably the second biggest draw in the NBA right now after LeBron. It’s nice to have Shaq on the block for 60 games a year, sure, his 30 million dollar or whatever salary notwithstanding, but the problem is, you aren’t going to be winning anything in the next few years anyway. It’s not like the Lakers were going to improve from this year to the next, even if by some miracle everybody returned. It’s easy to say that Kobe’s a bastard, and Shaq’s unstoppable, because both are true, but you have to think beyond next season. Next season is going to be a disaster no matter what you do. If you don’t accept that, and you cling to the hope that you can still be an elite team, you let Kobe go and Phil Jackson maybe stays. So, you keep Shaq because he’s dominant and Kobe has a bad attitude, and Shaq averages 25 and 12, and you probably grab the six seed two years in a row, but you don’t win shit because you’ll have no floor game to speak of.
Then, this time two years from now, you realize that Shaq is done, and his body can’t take the pounding anymore- he’s not that far from that point right now. Malone and Phil Jackson are long, long gone, GP’s put out to pasture, and Fox and Fisher are either somewhere else in the league or on the golf course. You have to rebuild, attendance dwindles, Rudy T moves on, and all of a sudden you’re an overpriced lottery team with no marketable stars- Luke Walton is the face of your team. Meanwhile, Kobe’s only like 28 and he’s still the most lethal weapon in the league. But he’s still a prick; hopefully that provides some solace.
Personally, I’d put up with his arrogance and his insanity, because a team with Kobe can be a championship team going forward, as long as you play your cards right. A Lakers team with Shaq can never be a championship team again because of time and salary restrictions.
Lots of guys have long wingspans. Who were the ones that “shut him the fuck down?” Yeah, he had a bad Finals, but 22.6 a game was still good enough to outscore the Finals MVP. That’s not exactly a meltdown of John Starks proportions. Plus, it wasn’t like Prince was stripping him and blocking his shots or anything, and Kobe couldn’t get a shot off. Kobe took a bunch of idiotic jumpers because he’s insane, which I already conceded. Don’t act like all you need to do is trot out some six-nine toothpick and all of a sudden Kobe can’t get across halfcourt, though.
As far as proclaiming he won’t get a ring, that’s great, but it’s not really relevant. It’s not like I’m saying the Lakers are going to win the next six Finals if they keep Kobe around. It’s right there in the part you quoted- the Lakers can never again be championship caliber with Shaq, but they can with Kobe. You absolutely can’t keep them both, so you keep the guy who gives you the best chance to win.
Prince did a nice job of shutting him down, because all finals he was relegated to 3 on 1 circus shots. He was out of rhythm the entire series. I think his attitude is poison, and his nutty demands will prevent the neccessary role players to be put in place. He’s no better then Vince Carter, Tracy, or Iverson, a bunch of 30 ppg players on nobody teams. I hope he’s happy because he got what he wanted.
I’m sorry, I just don’t buy this. Who is a team more likely to rally around? The guy who wants a good coach he can work with and a team attitude, or the ball hog prima donna who has proven that anyone is expendible if it’s what he wants? Shaq may only have a few good years left, but he’s shown himself to be a team leader. His teammates are willing to work with him. And he doesn’t have a problem listening to the coach, or kicking the ball out. Who wants to be on a team with someone who could easily send you packing if you piss him off?
Well, if you knock VC out of there, because I think he’s had his better days, I think I tend to agree with you. The thing is, you can’t really know that yet, because unlike McGrady or Iverson, Kobe’s never been that guy. AI and T-Mac were taking every shot they wanted to take through their entire career, and you wondered if they could fit into a championship team dynamic. Kobe’s the opposite- he’s already done that, now we find out if he can do it solo. If I had to bet, I think he’ll have more of an Iverson career than a T-Mac up to this point. I think the Lakers will fit in pieces around him once they get some flexibility, and at some point the Lakers will be a very good team again. It’s definitely a gamble, as nuts as Kobe was on the court all year, but if I’m the Lakers I look at what he used to be just a couple years ago, and the fact that he’s still just 26, and I lock him up.
-Preview-
Maureen, you’re kidding yourself if you think all the Shaq/Kobe drama was Kobe’s fault. Shaq ain’t exactly the Joe Dumars you’re making him out to be. Anyway, you missed my point. The Lakers, with Shaq, aren’t going to be very good, and then he’s going to retire- soon. The Lakers, with Kobe, will be at least marketable, and you’ll have time to build another legitimate contender. It’s not about choosing Kobe as a team leader over Shaq as a team leader, or who the team is going to rally around. Rallying is great to a point, but good players who aren’t rallying will beat shitty players who aren’t. Rally or no rally, Gary Payton and Devean George isn’t going to get it done next year, or the next.
You’ve got a crappy team right now. You can bank on a 32 year old 330 pounder with bad knees, feet, and back, who makes twice the league maximum, or a 26 year old swingman who you can resign for as long as you want. At some point, you have to come to grips with the fact that the Shaq era is over. You can either try to build a Kobe era, or you can piss it all away for a couple years of watching the decline.
Scusi? My team? Nononono (If you meant the generic “you” I apologize). I despise the Lakers. I am enjoying the melt down. And I hardly consider Shaq the best player in the league, I can see his shortcomings. But, those stats I quoted come straight from ESPN over last season. With Shaq/without Kobe their win percentage was near 80. With Kobe/without Shaq, near 60. To me, that does not a bright prospect make when it comes to Mr. Bryant.
Sorry, I meant if you were the Lakers you. Heh, believe me, I got the idea that you don’t like the Lakers.
As far as the win comparisons, don’t get me wrong, I agree that the Lakers of the last few years have depended more heavily on Shaq than Kobe. Plus, it’s a team that was built around Shaq for the most part, so the fact that they played comparatively poorly without him is no surprise. Big men tend to wear down, though, and that process has already started for Shaq. If I was the Lakers, I’d have to forget about what happened during the glory days, and make a rational decision about who is going to make my team better for longer, and that’s Kobe.
Can I just add that Kobe’s a prick? I feel weird talking about him this long without it.
