Is it actually a crime to “offend the dignity of the Republic” in France, and can one actually GO TO PRISON over it?
If this is so, I’d say that France and the French have no moral high ground in dictating what the behavior of other countries should be.
Has France really become such a fascist state?
You are talking about this proposed law, which would outlaw insults to the French flag and national anthem.
Dogface, since you think the French law is so bad, I’m sure you agree that the proposed American anti-flag burning constitutional amendment means the U.S. has “become such a Fascist state” that it has “no moral high ground in dictating …the behavior of other countries.”
Yes…the Interior Minister just this year backed and got passed a bill that makes it a crime to “offend the dignity of the Republic and its symbols”. The law allows for the imposition of a fine and up to six months in jail for flag burning or insulting the national anthem. It also says that police don’t have to inform criminals of their right to remain silent anymore, and criminalizes begging, loitering, and “passively soliciting” for prostitution. The way that provision is written, it can be enforced against a woman who dresses provocatively.
It’s a thoroughly stupid law, it’s unenforcable, and if it ever does get enforced, the conviction will probably be thrown out by the European Court of Human Rights.
Also, France isn’t the only country with a law like this. Remember, it was illegal here to burn the flag until recently, when that was found unconstitutional.
There’s currently (I think) an bill in the Australian parliament providing for criminalization of flag desecration, and here’s the analysis by the Austrelian parliament looking at anti flag desecration laws worldwide:
http://www.aph.gov.au/library/pubs/bd/2003-04/04bd042.htm
(Currently, Austria, China, Hong Kong, France, Germany, India, Italy, New Zealand, Portugal, Taiwan and Turkey have laws banning flag desecration, according to the Australian parliament. Norway and Japan have laws banning desecration of foreign flags only.)
BTW, the law recently passed. It is not nearly so draconian as the “Patriot Act,” but it is certainly a disappointment.
‘I’ve said it before, and I’ll say it again: democracy just doesn’t
work.’ - Kent Brockman.
Yes. We’ll be around for you shortly.
Dogface, not every French citizen or French government official agrees with this law. Keeping in mind this rock-solid fact, do you agree with this statement from your OP?
If so, why?
It’s axiomatic that the French don’t have the moral high ground. That’s always been Tibet.
It’s also a crime to work more than 35 hrs. There are actually people who go around checking cars parked at businesses.
No, afraid it’s not a crime to work > 35 hrs per week in France - unfortunately it’s the norm to stay at the office until as late as 8 or 9 at night ! The commonly repeated bad joke if you leave before 7 - “taking the afternoon off ?”
The 35 hour work week initiative is probably best applied to unionized people who work on a clock (factories and the like) and approximately applied elsewhere. Executive and intellectual workers are just expected to “get the job done” like anywhere else. There was a system of tax breaks to encourage compliance, that’s where the fraud aspect could come in - you took the tax breaks, but didn’t follow the rules.
BTW 35hrs = 9 to 5 with a 1 hour lunch break…
Regarding new French laws - our current government is pretty similar to the current US admin, and if they’d just get over themselves, they’d probably be best buddies (and leave the rest of us to get on with our lives) ! As far as I know, nobody has been prosecuted yet for “passive soliciting” etc but we’re all waiting with bated breath.
Honestly, officer, I wasn’t working – jusr ask my boss.
A recently discovered piece of French Legislation dated March 16 1788 makes the use of, but not possession of soap a guilotining offence 
I find this reasoning (or, I should say, lack thereof) quite ridiculous.
Every country has laws which you can disagree with and I cannot see how this makes it any more fascist than any other state unless you are judging the world by your own narrow point of view.
In the USA you can go to prison over a number of things which are perfectly legal in France and many other places. So what?
What we need to judge is whether the country’s government and judiciary adhere to the rule of law and to human rights and these days the country which has fallen way behind in this department is the USA and not France.
France has given their own citizens the further protection of international tribunals which is something the USA refuses to do in general with the excuse of sovereignty and “internal affairs”.
You are better protected by the rule of law in France, or any other European country, than you are in the USA. Which is quite unfortunate because the USA is falling behind after being a leader in this respect.
Yeah, this “rule of law” extends “protection” by putting people in jail over “insulting the dignity of the Republic”. Some protection.
sailor, you’re making some valid points but I think you’re missing the main one. Honestly, nothing about such a law bothers you? Jeering the Marseillaise at a soccer game should be punished by law? Mocking the tricolor? The fact that 90% of citizens seem to support it?
And please don’t use the phrases USA and Bush in your answer–I’d like to hear about this surprising change in your philosophy in reference to France alone, and our perennial and ignored flag amendment doesn’t affect their thinking AFAICT.
Cheap French bashing, ignorance of facts…
I’ll take “dogface posts” for 500 Alex.
Mehitabel, where are you getting the 90% approval figure ? Polls I’ve seen give the “Loi Sarkozy” (Projet de loi sur la sécurité intérieur) 50~60% approval :
http://www.humanite.presse.fr/journal/2002-07-19/2002-07-19-37359
http://fr.news.yahoo.com/030114/202/2xqw0.html
The flag / Marseillaise part is a small part of an extensive legislative package, and certainly not at the core of it. I have to agree though, that there are some pretty repressive measures being suggested.
The main target of this legislation is the “invasion” of organized prostitution and organized panhandling that came about as a result of the collapse of the eastern block. eg Thousands of children are put out in the streets of Paris by panhandling rings (I believe they’re illegals from Romania).
The main targets of the law are
Organized prostitution
Organized and/or aggressive panhandling
Living in vehicles without permits etc.
As well as generally extending police powers (search and seizure, DNA testing, ‘miranda’ suppression).
But obviously some classics have made their way in there too. The flag business, some measures targeting drug dealers / kid gangsters - laws against ‘congregating’, more stringent gun control laws etc
It looks like most of the bill will make it through the legislature and be written into law, though it remains to be seen if the courts will uphold it. The consensus seems to be that they won’t.
Anyhow, this project has caused heated debate over here, though nobody seems too concerned about the flag stuff - I guess you’d have to find a flag first before you could impugn its honor.
Also - the bill specifies that you have to have conspired (outrage en réunion) to impugn the honor of the flag to get jailed. Definitely seems to be referring to the soccer incident…
It was in the original article, which now that I look at it seems sort of hysterical. I’m glad there’s a debate about it, though. 87% of only 952 people isn’t a good sampling.
I would really like you to qualify this a bit more. What exactly makes a European citizen more protected by law than a US one? Are you stating an opinon here, or did you have something in mind??
It seems to me that people are jumping to an end conclusion about the proposed US Flag Burning Amendment. First, the Amendment gives Congress the right to Amend the 1st Amendment to prohibit flag burning as a form of speech. It’s not a direct Amendment. Second, even if passed by two thirds majority in both houses (likely in the House, not quite as likely in the Senate), it then has to pass in three fourths of the states, and many people think this is unlikely.
There are some states where it will fly through, others where it will be close and others where it would never pass. Probably a 66% pass ratio. However 66% does not 75% make, not even in new math books.
The House Republicans seem to do this every so often and so far, the Senate has found a way (by voting it down or going into recess before voting on it) to effectively kill it.
Regards,
-Bouncer-
Don’t forget the french law which says; you’re not allowed to name your pig Napoleon.