Oh, what cute cheeksies! Who’s a good girl? YOU are! YOU are! Boobooboobooboo…
[channeling Nenna]I’m sitting! I am SO sitting! Look how good I am, sitting like this! Please pet me. Or give me food. I know you have food. I can’t see it, but I know you have it, because people can always get food. I’m so hungry, and nobody ever feeds me, and I’m sitting! (repeat until master gets fed up and knees dog away)[/channeling Nenna]*
Echoing what everyone else has said, yeah, you need to be top in your household. Your dogs have their order, and you’re above all of them, without exception. You have to be able to do whatever you want, with no complaint, at any time, because sometimes you have to do something suddenly, and you can’t give an explanation. You can’t afford to coax Daisy into giving you the shard of chicken bone she’s chewing on, you have to snatch it from her and tell her she’s a bad dog.
Again, as others have said, dogs are not people, and you shouldn’t treat them as such. They need a strong social order, and they’re not equipped to make their own way in our world – dogs are our pets, and we take care of them, which includes doing what we have to do to keep them safe, including from their own behavior. They’re not allowed to do anything we don’t want them to do, or have anything that we don’t want them to have, because there are a lot of things that pose a danger to them, and learning by experience that you shouldn’t eat a chicken bone can cause a great deal of pain, injury, and quite possibly death**.
**-Disclaimer: IANAV, and I don’t know that a chicken bone slicing up the intestines can kill a dog, but it’s certainly going to do a lot of damage.
*-Yes, I have lived virtually my entire life with at least three dogs; how could you tell?
Yep, and you are my first vote for denial of licensing.
As for what others said regarding the alpha roll – I apologise, they are correct. I sometimes forget that this is the intarwebs and I do not come through clearly. While I know what animals I can and cannot safely roll, I do not know what animals you can and cannot safely roll. Do look into professional help with the training if you are not comfortable with it yourself.
It’s my understanding that a dog feels emotionally comfortable when he (or she) knows his proper place in the pack and has confidence that the pack is well-run. A pack leader who gives clear, unambiguous signals, spends time with the pack, provides (finds) food and shelter, allows playtime*, and generally runs a tight ship will enable the subordinate dogs to not worry and to fullfill their roles with zest and a sense that all is well.
*It may be my own foible, but I believe that a pack of dogs is more likely to engage in play when well-fed, safe, and unworried about its environment. Conversely, I hypothesize that play, especially play initiated by the pack leader, can signal to a domestic dog that the pack is in great shape and it’s time to party.
I do not believe in punishment per se, although I have seen people do what Id consider to be proper alpha rolls with apparent success, and I’m not going to argue with people using such methods judiciously and humanely. But I completely believe in positive reinforcement and that the human(s) must make a dedicated effort to understand pack dynamics and provide leadership. The dogs are looking to us to provide these things, they need them.
Sailboat
There’s no god complex involved at all. Dogs are driven by heirarchy. Every other dog (or person) in the pack is either above them or below them. There are no equals. Everyone on the ladder get’s to piss on everyone below them.
So… Pisser or pissee? Your choice.
Personally I’m going to be on the top of the ladder.
I am benefiting from this thread as I have the same problem. My eldest dog will also steal the treats from the younger dog and growl if I attempt to take them back. She is just a little dog but it is disconcerting being growled at even if she can’t do much damage. I have been walking up and taking her treats the past couple of weeks and she is okay. But if I try to take a treat she took from the other dog, she growls. It is like she’s saying “hey, I worked hard to steal that and you aren’t giving it back”.
In all honesty, I wouldn’t muck with her stealing treats from the other dog. If you really want the other dog to have a treat, make sure the treat is consumed before the thief gets a chance to steal it – in other words, put the thief up in another room/her crate/wherever until other dog finishes treat. Unless one dog is actively hurting the other, there is no reason to not let them sort out their own order in the pack.
Good point. I guess the frustration comes from the fact that the younger tries to hide his treats now. It is pitiful when I give it to him and he walks around in circles for 20 minutes finding the perfect place only to have the elder snatch it away the minute his back is turned.
I agree–we had a situation when my daughter adopted a rescue bitch who is Little Miss Wants To Be Alpha At All Times. We babysat her for most of the summer and Callie kept getting into it with my big Malemute bitch (who outweighs the smaller dogs by a factor of about 3:1) as well as my Border Jack. There was much growling, teeth baring, toy stealing and snapping until they got it all worked out. Even so, I really prefer to let the small dogs have their treats separate from the big dog, because she’s very protective of food and could easily kill one of the smaller dogs if she got REALLY mad. Callie will still steal Widget’s toys but she doesn’t get mad at him when he steals them back–he loves her to death and lets her boss him unmercifully. The funny thing is that Callie used to be a constant teeth barer, very touchy and defensive of her prerogatives but now that she’s learned her place both in her own family and in mine she almost never bares teeth and then it’s usually just in play, and only to other dogs.
I’m definitely in agreement with the majority in this thread that a dog who growls and guards food or treats from people needs a sharp attitude adjustment. Dogs can never be allowed to snarl or snap at people (except for intruders–they’re fair game!) under any circumstances. Even Widget, who is the coolest and least alpha dog in the world gets proprietary and jealous of me and he made a token nip at a two year old who was climbing on me. He got scolded so hard and “bad dogged” that he rolled himself, was looking so far sideways he almost dislocated his neck and peed a bit–now he understands that even though small people still kind of weird him out they are still people and are TOTALLY OFF LIMITS. Now when that two year old is around Widget will follow her constantly, quite fascinated by her, but if she looks him in the eye or goes to take something from him he averts his gaze and will back away from whatever it is she wants.
Dogs just aren’t happy until they know the rules, and they won’t stay happy if those rules are in flux. They’ll test the boundaries because in a pack that’s normal, but a quick and decisive reminder of who’s boss makes them happy and reaffirms that they know what’s what and who’s who. Dogs that snap and snarl and challenge constantly are trying to get the people around them to TELL THEM THE RULES AND MAKE THEM STICK! Not doing so is animal abuse.
I know. It can be truly heartwrenching to watch. The younger pooch will learn to eat his treats right away or hide them better. dogs are pretty smart, he will figure it out. You might consider changing to treats that are consumed right away – I have found that my dog never goes back for treats he has hidden – I think it’s his way of saying "gee, thanks, Mom. :rolleyes: " We buy him treats that he eats right away now – keeps us from finding something icky later.
Oh barf–Callie’s a hoarder and I ran across a pig ear she buried in the garden… about two weeks later! Man, that is some foulass stench there… :eek:
It’s better’n what the cats (barn cats) bring me occasionally – half-eaten frogs and toads are *really, really * gross – especially since they adore me, and bring me the brains and tender parts! BLEARG!
Your dogs are not going to understand when you talk about something that happened in the past. If you want to correct a behavior, it has to be on the spot. Also, giving them a treat is just going to make them do it again, whatever “it” is.
I knew a dog who didn’t have this (know his place in the hierarchy). He was basically allowed to do what he wanted, thought the whole area of the apartment was his territory…he was pretty miserable, and his owners ended up having to give him away.
I’m now thinking of my aunt’s chihuahua, which terrorised our entire family when I was a kid. It’s clear that my aunt was alpha, the dog was second (beta?), and we were all further down. Not a good situation for a nine-year-old. I wish we’d known about this then.
What dogs do know: tone.
Cleaning the kitchen this weekend and discovered when I opened a lower cupboard that the dog (who was wandering around the house looking for something to do as I wasn’t in my chair so he couldn’t sit at my feet) had peed on the cabinet and it leaked inside somehow.
My immediate reaction was an angry shout. "Damn it! … Puck!!! SO came in to report that the moment the dog heard me curse, he stopped in his tracks and at hearing his name, his ears immediately flattened and he went skulking off into a corner to make himself ‘not there’.
Of course, he probably has no idea what he did wrong, but he did seem to understand, even from another room, that mommy was not a happy camper and it was his fault.
Incidentally, I agree with everyone that’s said that dogs must know the pecking order of the household. And they gotta be below the people, otherwise there’s gonna be trouble. I am clearly the alpha in our family. If I so much as stare in a menacing way at our pup, he’s on his back with his head turned to the side sneaking peeks at me out of the corner of his eye.
It’s a little tougher with the SO and kids though. They are the only ones he’s ever growled and nipped at. OTOH, he’s very protective of all us and has established the rule that there will be no horseplay or tickling of any kind. Apparently, he sees this activity as aggressive and will admonish whoever he deems to be the aggressor (i.e., the one making the other say “ouch” or “stop it.”) Although, the kids it’s totally unfair that I often get away with tickling as the dog usually takes my side, regardless of whether I started it.
I’m gonna try to implement the techniques suggested here to help the kids get a higher status in the pack. He probably sees them as equals to him.
Oh yeah, this is very common. We had a German Shepherd bitch when I was a kid who did NOT want to accept me as being over her in the pack. My mom wisely insisted that I help with her training, but she challenged me constantly and a few times I had to go out and smack the crap out of her to get her to back down to me–she never actually bit me, but she’d give me some really pinchy nips. We’d had her over 7 years before I outweighed her! She finally decided I had the upper hand, but she never did give the same respect to my sisters. She was fiercely protective of my mom and took a chunk out of my dad’s ass one day when they were fighting and he slapped her. We cheered the dog like nobody’s business! She saved me from a guy who accosted me with nefarious intent–got between him and me and showed a really impressive set of teeth to him and snapped at him every time he tried to move until I’d bailed out of the area and called her to me.
I loved that dog, but she was a dominance nightmare!
I have three dogs and they know that the three humans in the house have pack positions over them. We can all take a bone away from any of them and have at times if they start the bone stealing and it gets out of hand.
They have their own pack order but I am the leader and I don’t care what their issues are with each other, what I say goes.
There are times I have to leave them to their own as well as long as they are not pissing off the leader. It is hard at times to let dogs be dogs. They get love and affection from me but the thing they get the most is direction. They can not think they are equal to me or to each other. Everyone has their place in the pack which is what creates a pack to begin with.
Queenie is our alpha dog. She is out the door before the others, in the door before the others, she supervises the food dishes and make sure she eats first. She does not bark nor nip at the others. A quick “smile” and they know their place and remove themselves from the eating area until she is done. There are times she is not even hungry anymore but will still keep them from the food. In these times I may intervene. I sharp “QUEEN” and she backs down immediatly and lets the others eat. It sort of depends how much of a bitch she is being whether I say something. Nine out of ten times I let them be. Queen is more apt to keep Hanna in line than Cassie. Cassie is very old so for the most part Queen leaves her to her own. They have also been together for many years. Hanna is the newbie and the lowest in order.
Queen and Hanna have gotten into dominance fights a couple times. It was mostly Hanna wandering into Queenies personal space and Queen letting her know she should back off. Hanna did not mean to challenge Queen in any way, just Queen let her know that even thinking about it is not acceptable. There was no blood or bites just a lot of mouth. A quick yell from me and it is over.
There is nothing more frustrating than dealing with dogs that have not been taught that the human is the leader at all times. The leader is not only there to stop squabbles but to also establish saftey. If the pack leader has no control then there is a chance of harm if they won’t obey you.
If there was a fire and you are trying to grab your dog but they happen to have bone at the time will the dog burn to death because you are going be bitten by them?
I’ve never had a problem with stopping my dogs from working out their own pack order by fighting. If you don’t like your dogs fighting each other over treats, you may not have to let them. My current dogs are both fairly submissive, so just saying “no” to the potential thief is enough, but my parents had an extremely dominant Australian Shepherd who’d have walked all over their schnauzer if they’d let him. They just let him know that the behavior wasn’t going to be tolerated, and it was fine.
Likewise, if my Aussie tries to knock my Sheltie away when I’m petting him, I push her aside and continue… and she gets over it. There’s no reason to tolerate dominant behavior over other animals if it bothers you, and eradicating the behavior as much as possible has made our lives much easier when introducing our dogs to cats and young children- they know they aren’t allowed to display the behavior, so it’s a non-issue.