Well, I’ll explain American values in one sentence: You love freedom and will do anything to defend it, even repealing some to defend the larger ones you have. Thats what the Patriot Act is all about.
The American values are all about you can be who you want to be, wherever you want period. As long as you don’t harm or offend anyone else, thats it, thats the core value.
And if thats wrong, then I’m wrong and you can explain it to me, but I still think you’re crying over nothing, none of you will even profess to even trying to make sure the freedoms aren’t repealed through protest and civil action, so why whine about it.
I like the idea of Socialism, but with a few variables compatable to the population eg, to make it actually work, but then again the Free Market needs to have constraints to stop Middle ages style Feudalism to come back
I’m thinking 60/40 in regards to government and free market.
And what the fuck do your past few posts have to do with the original matter, oh little provocateur?
Vote. Republican, preferably. You can try to influence politicians in other ways, but none are even a fraction as effective. Please note the results of the last election; the people chose their representives for this democracy, and the news ain’t too good for you guys. And don’t forget, those elections were after how many of your ‘protests’? Didn’t accomplish shit, other than snarled traffic, did they?
Not ‘bad’ so much as ‘stupid’. Really really stupid.
Shit!
Advertising does work.
Your insightful analysis of the character of American culture ammounts to buying so much propaganda.
Do tell, how do We Americans rank these freedoms?
Cuz, here, I thought that those in the Constitution and Bill of Rights were a little bit important, no?
Giving those up still doesn’t leave us with any more ‘important’ ones.
No, it’s what the Uniting and Strengthening America by Providing Appropriate Tools Required to Intercept and Obstruct Terrorism has been sold to you as.
First, don’t confuse it with any patriotism. The act has about as much to do with being a patriot as pants have to do with fish.
Second, what the act is really about is the government mainting and increasing control and a knee-jerk reaction of absolute fear.
It destroys the village in order to save itl
Someone on Team America’s (the real folks, not the movie’s) marketing department owes you some thanks.
How does it feel to have a hook. line, and a sinker all in your gullet?
What’s to explain?
You are making unfounded generalizations about a nation of three hundred million.
I will.
I have.
I will most likely continue to.
And there are many other avenues of action.
Because it is anti-American and immoral?
Because it calls for centrilization of authority and neutralization of rights?
Becase it is, simply, wrong?
Because even if you can’t leave your house and march, maybe you can talk to other people over the net?
Because even if you are powerless, nobody wants to feel that way?
And, finally, just so you know, it is at the height of bad taste to tell patriots in a foreign country that they are ‘whining’ by expressing a desire for justice or the rule of law. It is the height of bad taste to tell patriots that because they’re not making the sort of impact you expect to see, that they’re just whining. In short, calling people “whiney” who are frustrated by the course of their nation and, despite their best efforts, and are unable to change it… well, that’s kinda the act of an asshole.
So, just a heads up, if, in the future, you persist in calling myself and my countrymen ‘whiners’ because we are talking about the problems in the system…
I will react accordingly.
We leftists and liberals should remember, however, that this blade can cut both ways.
I remember that P.J. O’Rourke once defined a liberal as someone who is happy to kill an unborn child but not a convicted murderer.
I happen to be an opponent of the death penalty, and a supporter of a woman’s right to choose, and i take O’Rourke’s quote for what it was: a vastly oversimplified exaggeration designed to get a laugh. Still, the principle behind the quote is not trivial: our society is composed of different value systems, and accusations of hypocrisy can sometimes rebound when we assume that our own values are those that should be shared by everyone.
Of course, blatant stupidity is a different issue altogether, and that where Brutus and Ryan_Liam fit in.
Wow. Few people in my time reading the Dope have managed to render me speechless.
Your honest plan on how to stop the administration is to vote for the administration?
Does that even make sense to you?
So, nothing is as effective in changing a politican as is giving him a mandate and telling him that all his policies are dead on, or at least you’ll vote for him anyways.
Do they sell tickets to Bizarro World? Cuz man, I think it’d be fun to hang out there. Don’t think I’d like to live there though.
Who exactly are ‘us guys?’
If by that remark you mean patriots, lovers of the American legal system, those who value our standing in the community of nations, those who want a transparent and honest government, those who want religion to stay out of politics, those who support a woman’s right to choose, those who don’t want to see the Supreme court packed, etc…
Then yes, this election wasn’t good for us guys,
I have already conceded that protests are often a way to express one’s voice (remember, we are in a representative democracy), and that much of the electorate feels that politics is utterly futile.
So now I challenge you, come up with an actual :rolleyes: sollution.
Don’t tell me that the best way to defeat Bush is to vote for him, because that’s just unmitigated idiocy.
Come on, put your money where your mouth is, because all you’re doing right now is repeating the rather “jerkish” refrain of "
“Oh, so you love your country and are saddened and worried over where it’s heading, eh? Well, you’re unable to stop it or make things better! Ha ha! Your view of a free and open America is being destroyed! Oh man, that’s a hoot!”
So, making your voice heard is stupid in Bizzaro World.
I will remember that if ever I should visit.
But you have yet to give me an effective strategy for directing social change.
So, put up, or shut up.
Because right now all you’re doing is playing the obnoxious game of “taunt the liberals.”
Ah, but it doesn’t cut both ways. Liberals do not necessarily consider abortion to be the “killing of a child”. You could argue that they’re wrong, but you can’t argue that their beliefs are hypocritical.
Don’t forget that some of us might support legalized abortions because we believe what happens to a pregnant woman’s fetus should be decided by the woman herself. We may be personally opposed to the idea of having an abortion, but we’re not presumptuous enough to believe we should dictate a decision for everybody.
It is not kosher to assume that Brutus’s opinion is that the Bush administration is a threat to list of things you asked for his methods of protection of.
In fact, even a cursory view of Brutus’s posting history should be sufficient to establish that such is not his opinion.
He’s quite likely to be wrong about other things, as well.
kaylasdad99 : thank you for the clarification, but I do not believe it changes anything.
It is objectively true that the U.S.A. P.A.T.R.I.O.T. act limits civil liberties.
There’s really no argumentation.
Now, while someone may say those civil liberties should be limited, it is dishonest and slimey to tell someone who objects to those limitations, to vote for the guy who’s doing the limiting.
I am well aware of brutus’s political views, that doesn’t change my question however. Obviously since many people do not agree with Bush, voting for him does not help a represantive democracy. Obviously, since many people want our civil liberties back, voting for Bush would not accomplish that.
So the question still remains, if someone wants our civil liberties back and feels the Bush isn’t expressing their voice/convictions, what can they do?
And voting for Bush is not an answer.
True enough, but remember that we don’t get to set the parameters of our debates without coming up against the parameters that others set. Liberals might not see themselves as hypocrites, but others might differ, depending on the values and the moral framework they use to underpin their positions.
Conversely, someone who opposes abortion but supports the death penalty is also not necessarily a hypocrite, depending on the justification used to rationalize his or her position. All one has to do in order to refute the notion of hypocrisy in this case is to argue that:
a) abortion is the taking of a life
b) execution is the taking of a life
c) the taking of life is acceptable under certain circumstances, specifically when the person in question has undertaken an action so heinous as to transcend all other punishments and to forfeit his or her life.
I might disagree with premise (a), but simply holding that assumption does not make someone a hypocrite. And while i wouldn’t agree with the overall position, and would try to convince a person who adheres to it of the moral and the practical problems of the death penalty, and the benefits of allowing women to have abortions, the fact that i disagree with that person on these issues doesn’t necessarily make the person a hypocrite.
I don’t agree that it’s a strawman.
My question was obviously as to ways to stop the administration’s agenda without resorting to ‘stupid’ protesting.
The answer “the administration doesn’t need to be changed.” does not answer my question as to how to change the administration.
So, either Brutus dodged my question (which I tried to imply via sarcasm, which, yes, often doesn’t carry via text)…
or, he was serious.
But I think he was just trying to fuck with me.
Thank you for the oversight though. Goddess knows it can be hard to see your own foibles sometimes.
No, it doesn’t make sense to me. I was specifically responding to your call for suggestions on ‘more effective methods of protecting civil liberties, expressing one’s voice, and participating in a representative democracy.’ That you then apply my answer to a specific question to another matter is bizarre.
See above. I didn’t mention ‘changing’ anyone, and was responding to a specific question from you. Don’t start randomly applying questions after the fact.
Even your insults suck.
Yep, lefties got the spanking. Judging from your lack of ability to learn from your mistakes, get ready for another in '06, and probably '08.
Great. So since now you feel that politics is utterly futile, you will just circumvent the system? If you can’t win at the polls, you’ll try to shout down the opposition? Pathetic. Not to mention, it doesn’t work. At all.
Come up with a solution to what, moron? To how to best ‘[protect] civil liberties, expressing one’s voice, and participating in a representative democracy’? I already answered that, though you choose to ignore it. (Or apply my answer to another question, it’s hard to tell with you.)
If you want advice on how to defeat the next GWB, piss off. It’s been done to death; For months and months and months, we were telling you guys that your candidate is too left, too soft, et cetera. And the response we got was generally along the lines of OMG TEH PEOPLE WILL DECIDE! Well, they did. So suck it.
If you want advice on how to defeat (stop?) GWB before the next election, you should seek professional help, since you are going to be in for a long couple of years. (I hear some shrinks are making a pretty penny off counseling people like you after the election; give one a call!)
You keep babbling about ‘representive democracy’, but I don’t think you know what it means. Part of it means that sometimes, you lose. You don’t always get what you want.
Yet the flipside of that coin doesn’t seem to register in your impressively-sized brain: If you guys won, our view of a free and open America would be in jeopardy. Turning tricks for Big Daddy UN isn’t our cup of tea. A thick layer of Euro-style ‘hate speech’ laws does wonders for stifling free speech. Et cetera.
But no, you are only capable of seeing your way as being the correct way.
Oh for fucks’ sake, your voice is being heard right now, and it ain’t helping you much. Go have your stupid protests, just don’t block traffic. (And if you are in the anti-Globalization crowd, stop it with the smashing windows and stuff.)
What the holiest of Holy Fucks? When the hell did you ask for ‘how to direct social change’? Not that I would answer that, since I don’t feel it’s the goverments job to play social engineer, but still, you sort of tacked that fucker on at the end, didn’t you?
Nah, watching you guys chase your own tails is plenty fun. You certainly don’t need encouragement from me.
That I would apply your response to the question asked is… bizarre?
More proof that you’re living in Bizarro World and things on the other side of the looking glass are just weird to you.
Moreoever, unless you’ve got your cranium jammed firmly into your rectum, you can’t argue that Bush is protectng civil liberties. I had assumed that you were arguing in good faith, being intellectualy honest, and going to accept that if someone wanted to protect civil liberties, then they’d need to support someone who wasn’t attacking them.
Ah, now we get into real Pit stuff. Good show!
Just for a hint though, when you respond to me and then somehow manage to forget what the fuck we’re talking about in the space of a few posts… maybe you’re the one who needs to bone up on comprehension, eh? Or maybe just retention?
To sum up:
1st post: I say the situation with civil liberties sucks and I have been protesting
2nd post: You say that, ha ha, of course protesting doesn’t work. Ha ha.
3rd post: I say, okay, then show me a non-protest based strategy.
4th post: I say, 'hey, still waiting for an answer."
5th post: You say “vote republican.”
Ah, I see.
So instead of answering in good faith and coming up with ideas to achieve the stated goals of my position and protest, you decided to dodge the question.
Classy, that.
Just in case your reading comp isn’t up to snuff, we were discussing effective ways to protest Bush’s policies.
Do try to keep up sport.
Try to remember that the original question was coming from someone who is against Bush and was asking for better ways to oppose him.
As such, your response was either directly from bizarro world, rank idiocy/asshole-ness, or that you’ve evidently forgotten what the question was.
Try to keep up.
Ho-ho!
A spanking, your rhetorical brilliance dazzles me.
As does your ability to limit American politics to an Us-Them highschool mentality.
“lefties” didn’t get “spanked”, Bush got re-elected, and the people who will suffer are not just “lefties” but all of the country. Feels great to shoot yourself in the foot, don’t it? But hey, as long as you spank those lefties!
Moreoever, it is a sign of rank intellectual decay and fantistically poor semantic hygiene to refer to everyone who might be left of center with the pronoun ‘your’. Clearly you have not conducted a statistical survey with analysis of those who are self-declared liberals plus those who vote that way plus…
So you really have no way at all to speak for what ‘they’ are doing, or learning.
And you’ve made a group fungible in order to demonize them.
Intellectually lazy, sloppy, and fallacious to boot.
Try to keep up tex.
Hey, thanks for noticing what the original question was.
Yes, protesting appears not to work as well as it might (but saying it doesn’t work at all is yet more idiocy disconnected from reality, or rhetoric disconnected from logic. Take your pick)
And as I challenged you, come up with a non-protest based strategy to voice our concerns and change the policies of the government.
Try to keep up buddy.
So let’s see, your honest answer as to how to protect civil liberties (which are being attacked by bush) is to vote for him?
Your honest answer as to how to express one’s voice, when it is obvious that person doesn’t like Bush, it to vote for him?
The best way for one who is part of the loyal opposition to participate in a representative democracy is voting for the party they oppose?
And you call me a moron? :rolleyes:
So, it’s binary. Either you were answering my question, and talking from Bizaro World. Or, you were not answering my question, and you’re now being an asshole.
Which is it?
Try to keep up Hoss.
Read: If you actualy want me to answer your question rather than pretend that I did and act like an asshole, piss off.
Point taken Brutus.
But I’ll put the question to you again, in case you are feeling intellectually honest:
How do we engage in non-protest based activities designed to voice or concerns, participate in our government, and protect civil liberties?
Note: Answering that we should vote for the guy taking away our civil liberties in order to protect our civil liberties is just stupid. If you don’t think civil liberties should be protected, say so. Don’t be intellectualy dishonest.
Gorsh!!!
You mean, prezidentz are only allowed two terms?
And, since your reading comp ~laughter~ seems to be so high, yes, how to defeat bush. No, not how to un-elect him. But to defeat him and his agenda. You do understand that politics isn’t just one election every four years, right?
Ooooh!
A personal insult coupled with political invective and fallacious fungibility!
Do you try to write bullshit this rancid, or do waves of feces just flow from your mouth when you try to talk?
Oh, and just in case you’re curious, I have voted replubican in the past, and probably will again in the future. Your attempts to pigeon-hole me based on my love of civil liberties and opposition to Bush are laughable.
Gee whiz!
You mean, we live in a representative democracy and not some weird solipsistic absolutism?
Never would’ve figured :rolleyes:
Here’s a clue for you pardner: politics aren’t elections only. It’s not a horserace. You dont’ lose until you stop participating.
This really bugs me (not your childish jabs at my intellect), I am not one of “you people”, “you guys” “you lefties.” I don’t belong to any political party. I don’t subscribe to either major party platform, and I sure as hell do resent your intellectually lazy efforts to lump me in with other people and fallaciously make a group fungible in order for you to not have to debate specifics.
So, just to check, but your view of an open and free America includes fewer civil liberties? This is more open and free?
Or are you, again, spewing shit?
And, whatever political stripe you are, you are entitled to your own opinions, values, and perceptions. However, you can’t have your own facts. And you can’t deny that the U.S.A. P.A.T.R.I.O.T. act takes away civil liberties. So, by definition, if you support something which takes away civil liberties, you do not oppose something that takes away civil liberties.
Try to keep up spunky.
Funny…
Not violating intenational law doesn’t affect American civil liberties.
Kerry didn’t run on a platform of creating new hate speech laws…
etc…
Correct, I am only capable of seeing something which takes away civil liberties as taking away civil liberties.
I have not yet emmigrated to Bizzaro World.
Yes, and you can also make your voice heard through other means. Means which you have called stupid, but have, as of yet, failed to provide any better alternatives.
Gods… I feel like I’m in a classroom right now, teaching the slow kids.
The state of our society, that is, our civil liberties, politics, attitudes, are societal.
I didn’t tack anything on to the end, your reading comprenshion has again failed you. From the beginning I was talking about protesting as opposition to Bush and talking about what more effective means would be.
Try to keep up skippy.
So after all that ink, your response is that no, you won’t answer my question, at least not in the spirit it was asked and you will, indeed, continue to be an asshole.
Listen retardo, I have answered all of your umpteen fucking stupid questions. That you choose to ignore the answers, or apply them to the wrong questions, or simply wave them away, is your own fucking problem.
Your style of ‘debate’ is better suited for DU or some other moron corral, you know. Better yet, just open Notepad and ‘debate’ with yourself, since you certainly don’t pay attention to responses. (Unless it is a comprehension problem, in which case I refer you to the website I provided above.)
